The Ones who write the RULES

[Garland]

Okay...so before I start, I would like to address a percieved problem with the responses to this thread, and to do so, I want to lay down some guidelines; this thread is meant for civil conversation and debate, not bickering, backbiting, and incessant, inane babble and blunder, so keep the shit talking and the name calling crap to a minimum, and TRY TO PROMOTE INTELLEGENT DEBATE on the topics given.

Okay...with that out of the way, I was inspired to create this thread after reading the last few arguments posted between BoarSpear and SamuraiGuy in the KravMaga vs. Other arts thread, namely the ones concerning the so-called abuse of power by the united states military, the use of media manipulation, and the corruption of government. Naturally these things are not monopolized by the US, but they are an UNDENIABLE aspect of our society, especially in current times.
I am going to say some things that will piss many of you off...so just bear with me and try to keep an open mind, argue with me, present me with facts and plausible theorums, but don't let this things start to spiral, aight?
I'm going to pose a few questions, also...

1) 9-11...would it have happened if Gore had been appointed (not elected ) to the presidency?

2)With Bush in office, and if 9-11 had never happened, would we still be in Iraq?

3) What is (or was) the connection between Al-Queda, the Afghani war, and our new war in Iraq and the ousting of Saddam?

4) If war crimes were the reason saddam had been ousted...then why are several US appointed or US supported military dictators around the world still in power, as well as several other non-US affiliated bastards that committ attrocities that make Sadam look like a Mario, not Wario?

5) In this light, if we are indeed the policemen of the world, why do we only seem to ever lend support (in the form of neo-imperialism) to those places where we have a chance to gain resources or capital? {Iraq, Cuba, Cote de Ivorie} and let places like South Africa, Haiti, and Libya, do whatever, and only lend a hand to Albania when the UN and popular opinion force our hand?

6) Upon actually CONVICTING for war crimes, some of Slobodan's generals accused of GENOCIDE and ETHNIC CLEANSING got a 40 year sentence...what somebody could easily get for trafficing large amounts of DRUGS. Why is that?

7) Nazi war criminals...most got hung that didn't flee...right???
what about the Japanese guys in Manchuria that did similar things on a wide scale? The one's that would conduct expirements and research on medical issues as well as the use or defense of bio and chemichal weapons using the Chinese as guinnea pigs....hey...weren't they granted immunity and asylum in the US following the war in return for their RESEARCH???

8) Wasn't Bush into Cocaine??? Have you guys seen the video of him drunk?? Who's actually watched one of his speeches and seen him orate? What do you think his SAT score is??? and...How the Holy FUCKING Christ did he ever graduate from an IVY LEAGUE school ...without his daddy going completely broke...Saudi $???

9) How many of you guys support our troops getting killed in an unjust, unpopular war for profit?

10) This is a hypothetical, and just bear with me, use your imagination, if America was a third world country and somebody came into our country and toppled our government, stayed here and occupied it...wouldn't you be fucking PISSED???

11) Didn't Iraq, under Saddam, have better civil rights than most other Muslim Middle Eastern Countries, i.e. women's sufferage, no stoning, etc etc???

12) How is any of this shit justified? Lying? Control of the Media??
Can't you slightly compare the Twin Towers incident and the way it was USED and EXPLOITED by the administartion to further promote their own agendas to the way Hitler used the burning of the Reichstag???

13) don't Homeland sound a bit like Fatherland? Homeland Homeland uber Alles!!



God bless America.

[BoarSpear]

See my thread in the military tactics forum labled the 48 laws of power.
I also did a little thinking after that debacle. its what caused me to post the 48 laws for others to peruse. I think it answers most of the questions you asked. You have to give the U.S credit we have finest PR people in the world and with leaders like ours we need em

Did you see the south park episode where the boys wanted to know why everyone hated america? Its pretty bad when that many people hate us and we are A) too arrogant to notice, B) too ignorrant to realize its a problem, C) too busy being distracted to See. And last but not least its very unpopular to disagree with the current administrations policy's during these very critical times

[eXcessiveForce]

1) 9-11...would it have happened if Gore had been appointed (not elected ) to the presidency?

Yes, Al-Queda was a threat back when reagan was in office. Infact when oliver north was asked why he had such elaborate security for his home he responded because of Osama Bin Laden the most dangerous man in the world. To which the senator questioning him laughed at him. That senator was Al Glore.

2)With Bush in office, and if 9-11 had never happened, would we still be in Iraq?
We have been in Iraq for 10 years so probablly. We have had no fly zones that we patrol since the first war.

3) What is (or was) the connection between Al-Queda, the Afghani war, and our new war in Iraq and the ousting of Saddam?
Depends on who you believe

4) If war crimes were the reason saddam had been ousted...then why are several US appointed or US supported military dictators around the world still in power, as well as several other non-US affiliated bastards that committ attrocities that make Sadam look like a Mario, not Wario?
Iraq was an example that has much larger impact than what is immediately obvious. Notice shortly after attacking iraq, libya announce they would not keep WMD and they wanted to normalize relations.

5) In this light, if we are indeed the policemen of the world, why do we only seem to ever lend support (in the form of neo-imperialism) to those places where we have a chance to gain resources or capital? {Iraq, Cuba, Cote de Ivorie} and let places like South Africa, Haiti, and Libya, do whatever, and only lend a hand to Albania when the UN and popular opinion force our hand?

We don't want to be police men, but we want to protect our interests. Oil is an interest of ours and anything that threatens that will need to be put down.

6) Upon actually CONVICTING for war crimes, some of Slobodan's generals accused of GENOCIDE and ETHNIC CLEANSING got a 40 year sentence...what somebody could easily get for trafficing large amounts of DRUGS. Why is that?
because Europeans judged them. It was not a US thing.

7) Nazi war criminals...most got hung that didn't flee...right???
what about the Japanese guys in Manchuria that did similar things on a wide scale? The one's that would conduct expirements and research on medical issues as well as the use or defense of bio and chemichal weapons using the Chinese as guinnea pigs....hey...weren't they granted immunity and asylum in the US following the war in return for their RESEARCH???
I don't know enough about this one.

8) Wasn't Bush into Cocaine??? Have you guys seen the video of him drunk?? Who's actually watched one of his speeches and seen him orate? What do you think his SAT score is??? and...How the Holy FUCKING Christ did he ever graduate from an IVY LEAGUE school ...without his daddy going completely broke...Saudi $???

He had a higer GPA than John Kerry, I believe it is known that he has a learning disability and if you have ever been to texas you would see that language is somewhat fluid down there. Speaking does not always relate to intelligence.

9) How many of you guys support our troops getting killed in an unjust, unpopular war for profit?
gee, could you make that question any more biased? Popular??? name a war where people died that was ever popular, it doesn't mean that it didn't need be done.

10) This is a hypothetical, and just bear with me, use your imagination, if America was a third world country and somebody came into our country and toppled our government, stayed here and occupied it...wouldn't you be fucking PISSED???

11) Didn't Iraq, under Saddam, have better civil rights than most other Muslim Middle Eastern Countries, i.e. women's sufferage, no stoning, etc etc???
Um, No

12) How is any of this shit justified? Lying? Control of the Media??
Can't you slightly compare the Twin Towers incident and the way it was USED and EXPLOITED by the administartion to further promote their own agendas to the way Hitler used the burning of the Reichstag???
Because most people really don't care. They don't know anything about it and only believe what they are fed. Often those things are done for the benefit of the public and sometimes not.
h

13) don't Homeland sound a bit like Fatherland? Homeland Homeland uber Alles!!

This is moronic


God bless America.

there you go.

[Garland]

thank you for humoring me, force.

I'm particularly interested in your answer to number 12.
Disinformation and lying to gain popular opinion is, in what way, to the benefit of the masses? I'm not talking about some special secret that, if made public, would endanger our country or our troops, just the lies that certain undeniably (plz deny) opportunistic politicians use to promote their own agendas.

I'm also interested in why you left number 10 unanswered.

I know you think it is moronic...or perhaps I just challenged your views or alienated you by being too forward and ranting...but I'm trying (probably poorly) to begin an intellegent debate.

Again, Thank you for your time.

I'm still shuddering at the fact that Bush actually does have a learning disability...I mean, I don't want to sound like an asshole, but equal opportunity should NOT apply to the presidency...I don't know what type of job would suit him...in fact, I'm afraid if I let Bush bag my groceries he just might put a watermelon on top of a carton of eggs.

[Garland]

by the way, man...switch to BBC or NPR...too much Fox News will rot your mind. All things in balance.
...I know I come off as an extreme liberal...but that's not entirely true.
I hate on both sides of spectrum.

[eXcessiveForce]

oh I missed number 10, I was in a hurry trying to get dinner finished.

Unfortunately, we run our government by popularity not on common sense. remember the focus groups that said women prefered Clinton because he was cute. Um, that's not the way I would prefer to choose a president.

Also most people don't have a clue what's going on. Yet they vote. In the federalist papers it was stated that the danger of a democracy was that it could be controled by small special interest groups. However they felt this would never happen because the general public would be much to educated to be swayed by arguments that were not based of facts and logic. The were wrong. We see it all the time. Take the recent commercials about Mr. Roberts. First off the people do not get to vote on supreme court justices and second it is not supposed to be about politics but about law. The commercial was taken off the air because it made allegations that were completely unfounded.

As for lying, there are many things that a president must do that would be unpopular. People do not like it when soilders die, or when innocents are killed. But that is part of any war. Yet to back down after an engagement has already begun sends a definite signal (in fact in the middle east it was believed that America does not have the stomach for a prolonged and bloody war) the sad thing is they are right. Luckily our leaders do not always have to worry at that moment about public opinion. But if they do not control public perception their part could be doomed.

People bypass certain things without really ever analyzing them.

take in Clinton's presidency, We gave classified material (super computers) to china. Previously this was not allowed but the rules were changed. Now the question is why would we do this. China is one of the only countries that can hit the U.S. with a Nuclear weapon. the main use of supercomputers is for code breaking and targeting of missles. seems silly to give a country who really doesn't like you the ability to make their weapons more acurrate and the ability to crack codes easier.


Here is a question for you. How many countries have we attacked who are now our friends or even allies.

Your last question is silly because you are just playing on how words resemble eachother with highly emotive language. You tried a few times to draw the Nazi/ america comparision.

It is hard to carry on intelligent debate when questions are obviously skewed and designed to be quarrelsome rather than in the spirit of seeking knowledge.


A question you could have asked was. DO you see any paralleles between Nazi germany and the current state of the US. This would lead to a much better conversation.

The same with your question on the death of US troops. It is the very question it self that is designed to start arguements rather than discussion.

[eXcessiveForce]

As for Bush's learning disability, this does not effect intelligence. I laugh at all the people that say Bush is so stupid. He figured out how to become president so obviously he's not that dumb. He decided to become president long before he ran and he was successful at it.

Many highly intelligent people have learning disabilities. It does not keep them from going on to do great things. Similar to someone who studders, it effects the way they speak but it does not effect there ability to think.

If you look at a president, isn't it their job to make decisions for the direction of the country and then persuade the people to follow along. Bush managed to get the US onboard for the war in Iraq. And we took the country in 4 days. Even a chinese general was quoted as saying he was unsure that the chinese military could stop the americans. (do you not think this helps us with Taiwan?) Now installing a government in Iraq is much more difficult however as the terrorist rush to fight us we can kill them. Much easier than going out and trying to find them. We made an example of the forth largest military in the world and now other countries must decide if they really want to push america.

We deal with North Korea for instance because they can't hit us with Nukes. and because the people are starving. While they are a threat to the world others have a bigger stake in it that the US. For example, china, russia, south korea.

[Tom Yum]

1) 9-11...would it have happened if Gore had been appointed (not elected ) to the presidency? .

We will never know, because Gore was not president. Its all speculation.

2)With Bush in office, and if 9-11 had never happened, would we still be in Iraq?.

See Above.

3) What is (or was) the connection between Al-Queda, the Afghani war, and our new war in Iraq and the ousting of Saddam??

I'm no politician, but I understand that we funded and trained Al-Qaeida in Afghanistan during the Soviet/Afghan invasion. They will travel to fight us in Iraq, so we are taking the battle to them. Ousting of Saddam seems to have been a long-term goal of the Whitehouse...I could be wrong. Its mostly a human rights issue, with crude oil as the added benefit, I guess.

5) In this light, if we are indeed the policemen of the world, why do we only seem to ever lend support (in the form of neo-imperialism) to those places where we have a chance to gain resources or capital? {Iraq, Cuba, Cote de Ivorie} and let places like South Africa, Haiti, and Libya, do whatever, and only lend a hand to Albania when the UN and popular opinion force our hand?

We did not interfere in the initial events that triggered WW1 and WW2. When we did, we had to help Europe and Asia.

6) Upon actually CONVICTING for war crimes, some of Slobodan's generals accused of GENOCIDE and ETHNIC CLEANSING got a 40 year sentence...what somebody could easily get for trafficing large amounts of DRUGS. Why is that??

Don't know. Maybe you should get your grades up, go to law school and learn for yourself..

7) Nazi war criminals...most got hung that didn't flee...right??? What about the Japanese guys in Manchuria that did similar things on a wide scale? The one's that would conduct expirements and research on medical issues as well as the use or defense of bio and chemichal weapons using the Chinese as guinnea pigs....hey...weren't they granted immunity and asylum in the US following the war in return for their RESEARCH?

The nuclear option was more than destructive, but we contributed to the reconstruction of Japan. Many great Americans invested their time and knowledge into Japan in the 50's and 60's, not only out of sympathy but because their ideas were rejected here.

If you've ever been to Japan, you can see the benefits.

On another interesting note, there was a Nazi military officer who was sent as an ambassador to China during WW2 and whom acted as a liason between the Germans and the Japanese. This particular officer was actually horrified by what he saw the Japanese doing and often intervened often in a very 'hands on' way when he went out.

His heroism earned him a bronze statue, which still stands today...keep on reading, Garland.

8) Wasn't Bush into Cocaine??? Have you guys seen the video of him drunk?? Who's actually watched one of his speeches and seen him orate? What do you think his SAT score is????

Isn't it good to know that our president is human? Public speaking may not be his forte, but he has proven that he can plan and execute. He just has a different style. Your acting the same way as people that tried to also dog Clinton about the marijuana thing.

9) How many of you guys support our troops getting killed in an unjust, unpopular war for profit?

A highschool classmate of mine got killed clearning land mines in Afghanistan. He was allways pro-military, a very positive person and understood the risks. His parents supported him too.

He died doing what he enjoyed doing and had finished a lot of work that would make Afghanistan a safer place for its own people. Ever think of that way?

Hell Garland, if you got severly injured in a muay thai match, which you enjoy doing, would you stop being a fan of the sport?

10) This is a hypothetical, and just bear with me, use your imagination, if America was a third world country and somebody came into our country and toppled our government, stayed here and occupied it...wouldn't you be fucking PISSED?

Who wouldn't?

12) How is any of this shit justified? Lying? Control of the Media?? Can't you slightly compare the Twin Towers incident and the way it was USED and EXPLOITED by the administartion to further promote their own agendas to the way Hitler used the burning of the Reichstag?

I think you're not challenged enough, academically speaking.

God bless America.

If you had a frame of reference, to compare our lifestyle and opportunities we have here, you would really mean it. This doesn't mean we should be judgemental and smug about countries with less opportunities (a big no-no for Christians), it just means that you should appreciate and participate with what you have and be thankfull for it.

Since you mentioned God, as Christians we are supposed to be the light on the hill as you remember. In other words, setting a good example of what its all about.

So in our dealings with other nations (and people) we are not to be smug, condescending and haughty. And not judge others with bitter jealousy, envy or self-gain.

[BoarSpear]

while it is true that we gave JOBS to many of japans scientist who worked at "unit 731 " we also gave jobs to many (Gestapo) Nazis at the end of WW2 i believe they all went on to help form the C.I.A into the wonderful organization it is today...talk about seeing through tinted shades...When you stop and realize we incorporated the ideas and research and technologies of war criminals into our own military and political and scientific communities its easy to see how we got to where we are today.

[BoarSpear]

We did not interfere in the initial events that triggered WW1 and WW2. When we did, we had to help Europe and Asia.

We didnt interfere in either World War, we were manipulated into both of them by our allies. both times it was a submarine that sunk a "civilian" cruise ship

Since you mentioned God, as Christians we are supposed to be the light on the hill as you remember. In other words, setting a good example of what its all about.

One thing christians are really good at is setting a good example....
of how to behave like complete jackasses. Lets see "We will spread democracy even if by force" hmmm not a good example of christian behavior or my favorite...
Hey you savages... put on shoes, stop worshipping those false gods, worship our loving compassionate god...or we will kill you... yeah we set real good examples

[Sensei Saki]

By "we" do you mean you and me?Not many people say both.That is something I haven't heard of.That sounds good to me.You've got my full attention. Interesting gossip:
said I savages.OK I will put it there.Anytime soon?Awesome. By "we" do you mean you and me?

[Garland]

Okay...we were going good there....lets continue on some other topics as well....
Since I noticed a few of you guys toting the whole, "we americans as Christians" argument, I thought this might be an interesting sub-topic...(I would like to add, not all of us are Christians, and as an American believing in freedom of religion, and the ideal of seperation of church {and church motives, or synagouge motives, mousque motives, etc} and state, I resent the suggestion with great atheistic fervor)


I saw on a tv news program that approximatly 68% of Americans believe in creationism...and 75% believe it is a good idea to implement the "intelegent design" theory into the teachings of highschool science classes....Bush stands in strong support of this, and has ever since he was putting people on death row in Texas and carving notches in his door frames.

Where do you guys stand on the whole, "intelegent design" debacle???

if you guys are unfamiliar with it...it's sort of like teaching creationism along with evolution as a way to promote fundamentalist beliefs in schools.

[Garland]

Also...I would like to thank you guys for being as cool as you are with this little thread...I'd like to keep it up and have people just post things from the news and such for debate...so if you guys see anything that irks you, by all means, post it for discussion!

if you choose we can come back to this topic, but we already drew most of the facts and sides of viewing the facts into the open.

Also, I would like to state openly, that we DO have a damn good country, it's just sometimes the system, the people who run it, and the people in it suck.

It's not an "if you don't like it, leave" situation...it's more like, "no fucking way, you guys are taking it for granted and raping our nations ideals...and if you want you're oil...YOU go fight for it, and be up front about it...be like, 'listen America...I'm from old oil money, and because we run an oligopoly, a group of corportations acting together with monopoly power, that is to set production numbers, and to manipulate prices, want more raw material, and upon recieving it want to create a false scarcity by not producing and distributing half the oil we should, so that we can raise prices...' "

something like that...

[BoarSpear]

Freedom of religion, i havent seen that one a whole lot here in the U.S.A.
Sure you dont get stoned fro practicing a different religion, but you sure dont get equal treatment...show me a pro choice license plate...or my favorite...We have a seperation of church and state... yeah thats why our MONEY says " in god we trust" on it. and we are one nation UNDER GOD...or oaths we take to" god and our country". As a vet when you go to the V.A. hospital they ask what religion you are. Try to tell them you're a Taoist some time...i get "what? uh thats not on the form..." or try buying non-essential items on sunday in a southern state with blue laws...Alot of the bs that gets done gets done in gods name because we as america do them...bush is a prime example of pushing personal agenda into doing gods work. much of this is to allow them to carry out extremely questionable practices as the "good guys." it's propaganda as has been stated many times...religion is a tool used by TOOLS to control the people.

[eXcessiveForce]

First it should be pointed out that separation of church and state does not appear in the consititution nor is it a right that is granted.

The consititution has what is called the establishment clause which states that the government cannot create laws respecting or establishing a religion. This is similar to the state creating the church of england.

This often leads to the quote freedom of religion not freedom from religion. This country like it or not was founded on chrisitan ideals. Our law is also based on christian ideals.

as for intelligent design, it is fine to teach it just as the theory of evolution can be taught. I do not believe that either should be taught as the truth. I think they should be presented as opposing view points.