Truth about American Pitbull terriers

[treelizard]

I reckon some form of mutual coexistence can and will be found for the long-term. I don't see a demon on either side of that particular issue.

Well then you haven't done your research, have you?

[jubaji]

Well then you haven't done your research, have you?

Why would that indicate that I haven't? What is it in my comments that you cannot accept?

[treelizard]

Why would that indicate that I haven't? What is it in my comments that you cannot accept?

What I quoted.

Hint: Look up canis lupus baileyi.

[jubaji]

What I quoted..

So, you don't believe there will be any long-term coexistence, or you do believe that there are demons involved?

[treelizard]

So, you don't believe there will be any long-term coexistence, or you do believe that there are demons involved?

I don't believe there will be long-term coexistence because the wolves are being systemically wiped out, especially the Mexican gray wolves. And after driving to Safford and all over to go to public comment meetings, while I wouldn't use the word "demon" I don't think it's too far off.

USFWS just killed 10 more Mexican grey wolves, including six pups. Wanna take a guess how many are left?

In June 2001, independent scientists who were hired to write the Fish and Wildlife Service’s Mexican Wolf Three-Year Review warned that the control program was removing too many wolves and would prevent the population from reaching its goals unless critical reforms were instituted immediately. The Fish and Wildlife Service pledged to take action but has failed to do so.

Those recommendations included 1) requiring ranchers to remove carcasses of cattle and horses that die of non-wolf causes in order to prevent the habituation of wolves into regarding livestock as prey and 2)allow wolves to roam outside the arbitrary boundaries of the Blue Range Wolf Recovery Area, just like all other endangered species are allowed (Mexican wolves are currently trapped if they go onto the “wrong” national forest)...

[jubaji]

I don't believe there will be long-term coexistence )...

http://www.redwolves.com/about_recovery/spring_2006_report.html

http://www.wolfhaven.org/red_wolves.htm

http://www.defenders.org/pubs/pfw03.html

http://www.fws.gov/ifw2es/mexicanwolf/

http://www.defenders.org/releases/pr2005/pr020105bc.html

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/NorthAmerica/Conservation/MexicanWolves/default.cfm

[treelizard]

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/mexwolf/wolf_wars.html

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/press/wolf7-22-05.html

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/press/wolves-06-08-2006.html

[treelizard]

http://www.defenders.org/wildlife/wolf/alaska.html

[treelizard]

I just got through your propoganda links, and they are NOT indicative of what's going on in the field!!

[jubaji]

I guess what's "propaganda" is pretty heavily dependent upon the bias you bring to the issue.

It seems that the one kind of wolf that you have become obsessed with is endangered and a lot of people are aware of this and working on its behalf. You have chosen to take a fatalistic view of the situation. If you really think its hopeless, why would you be so concerned? If its hopeless, its hopeless, right?

[Tant01]

What hope for the world?

How sad.... Too bad it's illegal to kill people....

[treelizard]

My "bias" comes from years of research on this issue, including proofreading the book I linked to.

I can prove that the so-called "facts" on the pages you linked to are not only misleading, but inaccurate.

Attempts at coexistence between ranchers and Mexican grey wolves (which were discussed in half of the links you posted), in addition to public meetings, scientific research (such as the Paquet report) and nonscientific attempts at wolf reintroduction have led to LESS grey wolves in the wild than there were originally.

How much time have you spent around the wolves? Is any of your information from the field, or are you just failing to read between the lines of the links you find to figure out what's really going on?

[jubaji]

My "bias" comes from years of research on this issue, including proofreading the book I linked to.

I can prove that the so-called "facts" on the pages you linked to are not only misleading, but inaccurate.

Attempts at coexistence between ranchers and Mexican grey wolves (which were discussed in half of the links you posted), in addition to public meetings, scientific research (such as the Paquet report) and nonscientific attempts at wolf reintroduction have led to LESS grey wolves in the wild than there were originally.

How much time have you spent around the wolves? Is any of your information from the field, or are you just failing to read between the lines of the links you find to figure out what's really going on?

I think you know that what you think you can disprove begins and ends with your subjective take on the situation. But I'll help you out. I'm more than happy to concede that you have more direct experience with this issue than I (assuming you realize the limitations inherent therein). But now you need to answer my question. If you really think its just hopeless (which you have indicated several times now), why worry about it? Are you hoping to accomplish something or just pulling a boarspear?

[treelizard]

Actually, the NUMBER of wolves that are still alive compared to the number that were alive before is definitely both objective and verifiable. So is the fact that none of the suggestions in the Paquet report were actually acted upon.

Just because it looks like the coexistence of wolves and ranchers is highly unlikely, doesn't mean that people shouldn't worry about it. Especially wolf-lovers.

[jubaji]

pessimism is pointless.......don't be a boarspear

Just because it looks like the coexistence of wolves and ranchers is highly unlikely, doesn't mean that people shouldn't worry about it. Especially wolf-lovers.

So tell me, do you think its hopeless? I notice you just used the word "unlikely" there for the first time. Looking for room to renegotiate your position? If there is no hope, move on to the next issue, maybe one that has a chance to succeed. Why waste your time and energy?