Amish School shooting?

[Tom Yum]

And since this is a tactical list, with lots of martial artists, I know it's a far stretch to imagine that someone could come up with tactics for schools that do not assume teachers are armed with high power assault rifles, have a five-person security squad on demand at all times or are even in any kind of physical shape, but guess what? People do it all the time.

Can you post statistics or instances from a credible source?

If so, it would be interesting.

[treelizard]

Can you post statistics or instances from a credible source?

If so, it would be interesting.

Statistics or instances from a credible source? You could walk into almost any school and ask them what their evac plan and emergency procedures are. Most of them actually have some.

[treelizard]

Using reverse psychology to get what you want, Tree?

Baiting?

Aren't these tactics somewhat cliche

Not any more cliche than your contradictory comments on noble, quarrelsome women.

But I guess being passive-agressive is easier than coming up with solutions that might actually help teachers.

[treelizard]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for actually sort of addressing my questions this time. Unfortunately, my reality based situation explicitly stated that teachers would be in schools without good security which they had asked for, for years, and the school had not responded accurately. It did not state you were in charge of the school board, nor that you were planning a security force, nor that you had tons of money or power to invest in technology, access control, security patrol, personnel and administrators, as great as those suggestions might be. Therefore your suggestions 3 through 10 apply to a different scenario than the one I gave.

I'm curious though as to which behaviorial psych and soc classes you'd recommend. I was a Sociology major and didn't learn anything about preventing/containing violent incidents.

If the cost is too high and you think such measures are impossible, then work with the concept and not the specifics. What can you do with the idea of a multi-layered defense without hiring extra bodies or creating new positions?

Now we're getting somewhere!! That's a great question.

[treelizard]

Okay, let me say this AGAIN. Working hard to change the circumstances is obviously a good idea, but from my psychology classes I've learned that the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Therefore, if a school district has not put money into security despite repeated requests spanning several YEARS, they are not likely to do so in the future, so other measures would need to be taken. Second, even if they do implement it, it's going to take TIME so steps would need to be taken while waiting for all the paperwork to go through and security team to be set up. Lastly, even the best security isn't invincible, so teachers would STILL need to take steps just in case.

As far as posting my own ideas, I already posted them. But here we go again!

1. All teachers should be aware of their surroundings. They can invite people who have a tactical eye to their schools to show them specific areas they can be aware of, come up with specific evacuation procedures, look at barricades, locks, windows, etc. and come up with a good plan that is location-specific.

2. The teacher that meets with LEOs can share the information with other teachers.

3. All teachers should become familiar with school district procedures.

4. Teachers should become well-versed in local laws that may apply to them when coming up with reasonable options.

5. If there are specific evac drills and lock-down drills in place, teachers should go over and practice this with students. And actually rehearse them like they are happening.

6. Teachers should wear good running shoes and be aware of very basic things to keep in mind, such as clear exits and possibly even improvised weapons (not for use against high power assault rifles, but if the situation dictates it)

7. Teachers should learn some basic body language cues and indicators for dealing with potentially violent students, as well as how to defuse them by changing the subject, separating people, etc.

8. Teachers can practice simple awareness exercises and learn to detect when something is wrong sooner if they are on the ball.

9. Teachers can purchase insurance policies to protect themselves from liability and lawsuits so they are less afraid to act as the situation dictates.

10. Teachers who want additional training should work together to get a volunteer to teach a class or to get an affordable class or workshop available so they can learn more. I already posted a link to http://www.parttraining.com/ and there are other workshops in the works that will apply

Oh yeah!!

11. Teachers should get to know other teachers, which ones are good in crisis, which classroom they are in when, etc. and even things like cell phone numbers pasted on their desk. If I had an incident in my classroom, I'd want to know if the wrestling coach is teaching a phys ed class right next door and what his cell phone # is. Assuming I had time to call and couldn't handle it on my own.

12. Teachers should pay attention to strange men with guns in the hallways between classes and respond accordingly.

[treelizard]

Yes, I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

Sadly, it is harder to get a school board to adopt new policy than it is to get a book out of the library or look for a plant. Second, as I already pointed out, even if teachers continue to attempt to get the board to take different measures or try to fundraise, like I said in my very last post, 1) it might not happen 2) even if it does happen, they still need to take reactive and short-term steps while waiting for it to be implemented, and 3) even the best security force is not omnipresent and steps would need to be taken anyway.

Anyone else have suggestions for short-term reactive measures teachers can take? Or even long-term non-reactive measures that haven't been mentioned yet?

[treelizard]

P.S.
Behavioral psych classes that would apply to this situation are generally available at the Community College level or as a part of almost any Criminal Justice program at an accredited college. Same with sociology. Look for courses generally designed for Police Science or Criminal Justice majors.

Word.

Will do.

[jubaji]

We've got the Chinese pig warlord on our side. Time to get him some troops and train 'em!

I'm ready to journey to the west!

[treelizard]

Did I say that something being hard was a reason not to try? No. No, I didn't. In fact, I said that teachers should continue to try. What I said was that people need to take other steps as well, and I was looking for suggestions. Since you obviously don't have any, other than the non-specific ""encourage teachers to train and make them aware of the courses that are available" ones, feel free to continue to rehash your original idea over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

[treelizard]

Yes, it only took you eight pages to tell me where to find classes. Thanks for that. It's actually a realistic suggestion people may actually be able to utilize right away, though I'm still not entirely convinced it'll help them. I luckily came up with twice as many suggestions (which I listed) on my own and from asking people on other boards, and have discussed them with all the teachers I know in this very situation. We even have a little e-mail list going. By the way, did anybody mention martial arts classes for teachers as a suggestion other than you? I didn't think so either.

[treelizard]

Why is it so hard for you to understand that your so-called proactive measures of asking for better security have gotten people I know who are teaching absolutely nowhere (nowhere in there did I saythey should stop trying) and that taking approaches that may actually help them is a heck of a lot more proactive than being in a danger-zone-isolated location without a response? Is it less victm-oriented to not have contact information when you need to contact another person? Does contacting another person preclude being able to take care of things on your own? Is it somehow weak and victim-like to make arrangements in case you need to contact another person? Is it possible that the situation that comes up could even be one that doesn't involve violence that would make things easier if there was another person? Yeah, I thought so.

[treelizard]

Learning restraints and understanding improvised weapons is not martial arts classes. Restraints are taught in the PART course I linked to, which isn't a martial arts class. Seminars on violence prevention that may include one or two physical techniques are also not martial arts class. They're not jiu jitsu or kung fu, and the only person who mentioned jj and kung fu was you. Interesting that you accuse others of putting words in your mouth when you are doing it left and right. And obviously you can learn the concept of improvised weapons without taking any class at all.

The difference between calling the wrestling coach in the next room versus armed and trained security personnel, is that there often ISN'T armed and trained security personnel.

I also did not say people shouldn't push for security in ways they haven't tried. What I said was that 1) it may not work 2) even if it works, it takes time to implement and other measures need to be taken and 3) even if it works, security aren;t invincible and people need to take other measures anyway. Nowhere does that say there isn't hope in taking measures beyond training teachers to defend the classroom.

Lastly, even if mad gunmen are less than likely, precautions would still need to be taken for other less drastic situations.

"We tried all that before this latest rash of crises, and it didn't work. Why should it be different now that everything is changed and schools are more dangerous than ever?" Is not what I said. What I said was that 1) if it didn't work after Columbine, it's possible it won't work in this circumstance either 2) people have been and continue to try to get better security and are failing 3) even if better security was implemented it will take time 4) security is not invincible so other steps need to be taken anyway.

I think it's a good idea to plan for crises making it into the classroom before trained resistance is encountered SINCE THERE'S NO FRICKIN' TRAINED RESISTANCE AT THIS TIME. Call that a bandaid mentality if you like. I suppose me locking my front door is a bandaid mentality too then.

I'm not "fishing for pats on the back about what a great solution extra training is". I was looking for other solutions people could take on their own NOW. Since teachers are already working on the "what next" questions and as I said about fifty zillion times 1) their suggestions may not be implemented by the schoolboard 2) even if implemented it takes time and 3) even if implemented they aren't foolproof, I was looking for other suggestions. Guess nobody has any. That's okay. I've gotten more than my fair share from other places now.

[jubaji]

The difference between calling the wrestling coach in the next room versus armed and trained security personnel, is that

Is that a wrestling coach is worth any 30 armed and trained security personnel!

[treelizard]

Is that a wrestling coach is worth any 30 armed and trained security personnel!

Especially when the security personnel aren't in the building!

[3mptin3ss]

this has been the most boring arguement ive ever seen on this forum. some of you guys take yourselves way too seriously. at least when i get in my arguements, i try to make them somewhat entertaining. you guys dont even post cool images like these to make your posts better.....look at that badass haircut from matt blakes now deleted haircut thread. and look micky mouse pointing his m16 rifle at some natives of some foreign country thats about to consumed by usa capitalism/imperialism lol. i love that pic so much im going to have it enlarged and pressed on to my jiu jitsu gi. thats what people are going to see on my back when i go to competitions lol.