Amish School shooting?

[jubaji]

Actually, I'd say the vast majority of teachers that I've met put a huge amount of their own unpaid time into their jobs....

So do most I know people in any job. They don't demand a medal for it. Ask the teachers you know when the last time was they attended a professional development seminar unpaid. Unless they are non-union teachers (i.e. not working in the public school system) I already know the answer for most.

[treelizard]

Actually jubaji, there were THREE teachers in a field production course my work offers recently who were interested in learning how to use camera equipment so they could teach their students. Not only was the class unpaid, they were paying out of pocket to take it.

So do most I know people in any job. They don't demand a medal for it. Ask the teachers you know when the last time was they attended a professional development seminar unpaid. Unless they are non-union teachers (i.e. not working in the public school system) I already know the answer for most.

[treelizard]

Actually Mike, you didn't say ANYTHING about what teachers should do other than getting a "small but professional security force" which differ from every real non-imaginary security force because you expect them to 1) be trained in school needs 2) be paid well 3) be selected based on character and commitment 4) be free thinkers 5) have four or five of them in each school 6) be taught sociology and behavioral studies 7) have access control to lockers ("screw privacy policies") 8) be trained in active shooter and hostage rescue tactics 9) be armed in a school 10) go through academy and POST cert as well as crisis psychology 11) be held accountable for their decisions 12)
be confident, professional, and capable of tough decisions under gruelling stress, as well as being approachable and "able to develop rapport with almost anyone at the drop of a hat" 13) be immune to local Affirmative Action laws 14) be paid for by these magical $250,000 "snips and folds" in the school budget. This is a far cry from your security job with 8 weeks of training where you learned crisis intervention, behavioral profiling and restraints--which is also taught to teachers in less than 8 weeks in the course that I already posted a link to (and has actually helped at least one teacher I know deal with situations in her inner-city school on a regular basis without her having to rely on a five-person security team, illegal weapons or wearing a jacket.)

In fact your solution for what teachers to do was a) nothing, b) change the law and have them all be armed (that'll happen even slower than your magical security force), c) install devices that won't work, d) hire rent-a-cops that won't help, e) take extra training that nobody will go to and won't work

And since you are now using your specialty revisionist history to pretend you said that teachers should get training, which you didn't even bring up until yesterday as an aside, let me remind you that your response to teachers getting trained was to refer to it as a "BS half measure" that will "make teachers into some kind of amalgam of cop-SWAT-negotiator-teacher-classroom security person-counsellor" and "just add to the problem." Your original response was that either there is not more violence and teachers should do NOTHING (in your words "drive on and don't worry about it") or your mythical security force idea, which you are insisting is only unrealistic because people think it is (ignoring the fact that people in the school district have tried for years to get better security and not gotten squat.)

If you respect teachers as much as you claim to, why would you say that because teachers don't recognize bullying and violence and could be trained to, they should just not even get training in it at all because they haven't been as on top of it in the past as they could be? That's pretty pathetic and definitely doesn't show any respect for teachers at all. It's like saying, "Well, Johnny doesn't know his multiplication table yet, so maybe we should hire somebody else to multiply for him instead of teaching him skills he might need to use later on in life." And if he can't afford to hire a multiplier, maybe he just shouldn't worry about it, because he may not ever need to multiply anyway. Talk about defeatist. Sheez. If you're so concerned with teachers who do not have enough training to deal with incidents that may arise before they happen or teacher are too overburdened with their current workload to pinpoint student violence, maybe you should address that as an issue.

Like for example, you said "In most cases, teachers aren't equipped or prepared to stop even the schoolyard bullying that leads up to these events, let alone the active shooters themselves." Interesting that your solution doesn't involve equipping or preparing teachers. Your double standard on teachers versus security (i.e. if security FAILS like they have been for years, they just need better training, but if teachers fail then they could have done things differently but they didn't, so they need overpriced outside help the school won't get, or they can do nothing) borders on the ridiculous.

I was trying to go back and find your quote on courses that should be offered and how teachers should take them, but I didn't find any references to courses except for the ones that you said would make things worse. And I did indeed find you advocating that people sit around and do nothing as an alternative option to your security fairies, because if the security fairies don't appear or somebody claps their hands twice, then it must mean the problem isn't worth addressing and are unlikely to happen. Ever think that maybe the reason things don't happen as often as they would is because TEACHERS nip things in the bud before they happen by paying attention to indicators, behaviorial cues, etc. and separating people or changing the subject or de-escalating ahead of time? Oh no, that couldn't be it!

And as far as continued training, I don't think you understand that there are some things you can learn the basics of and use in practice without having to spend time, money, efford and continual bleeding like every martial arts teacher tries to convince you that you need so they can keep making money. You can take a class to understand bullying and school violence and implement what you learn without having to get a black belt and train five days a week.

Maybe if you spent more time in the school system, you would stop saying that it is a "fact" that teachers have not been able to stop schoolyard bullying. They can and do stop it, even if they haven't every time.

Lastly, if you really think that people who think that hiring four or five people to do security in a school system that doesn't have money for pencils is unlikely shouldn't be teaching, maybe you need to spend more time in a low-income school system instead of envisioning "reality-based scenarios." I'll believe it when I see it. TEACHERS HAVE TOLD ME THEY'VE BEEN ASKING FOR MORE SECURITY FOR YEARS and haven't gotten it. Maybe all of them shouldn't be teachers either because they're trying to look at things realistically.

[jubaji]

Actually jubaji, there were THREE teachers in a field production course my work offers recently who were interested in learning how to use camera equipment so they could teach their students. Not only was the class unpaid, they were paying out of pocket to take it.

Did they receive PDPs for it? Or was it just a subject they personally found interesting?

[treelizard]

Did they receive PDPs for it? Or was it just a subject they personally found interesting?

I don't think we give out PDPs but I don't know how it works. A lot of them came to be better versed in the equipment for when their students have questions about it. They are planning field trips and class projects using video equipment. Actually, they are really pushing multi-media bigtime in the schools, I have a class on technology in education I have to take this semester.

[npk9]

Actually, it makes a better case for teachers to address bullying and violence than it does to hire trained professionals. There are always more teachers than security guards. Second, if teachers are too overburdened to pay attention to kids, the kids probably aren't learning as well as they should be and this makes a much better case for smaller class sizes than anything else.

Option #1: Wait for your school district to hire security (or replace shoddy security with decent security), even though people have been waiitng for years.

Option #2: Get training so you'll be able to deal with situations that may arise.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

I want to get burned by Tree as well - so here I go!

So which option could handle the recent situation given the circumstance?

Quote taken from CNN
"Miller said that during the attack, Roberts apparently told students to line up in front of the blackboard. He began to tie his female captives' feet together. He let the 15 boys in the classroom leave.

Miller said Roberts also allowed an adult female who was pregnant to leave with three other adult females who had infant children with them.

The teacher who was released was able to alert authorities, Miller said."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

(cnn 10-3-2006)

Where were the teachers during all of this?? Teacher's definitely can handle student to student in-fighting but this was done from the outside. Where are the teachers when an outsider comes in? They're teaching because thats what they do.
The 2 options that have been presented would not solve the problem at hand.

If I were a parent - I would be pissed and lawsuit happy if there was a teacher that was "trained" or "certified" and tried to handle a situation that ended with my child being shot at - even if they weren't injured per se. When push comes to shove - bring it infront of jury.



I'm waiting for the BURN!

[treelizard]

It's a tough call. My MA coach said that providing intel can be more important than being a martyr--but I don't think I could live with myself if I let little kids get shot. Obviously prevention is more important, how did the guy get in the school without anyone noticing to begin with? What can people *realistically* do to address that issue? Would a one-room Amish schoolhouse with less than 50 students spend $200K on security?

I think people would be pissed and lawsuit happy if a child got shot at, regardless of whether the teachers had training or not. They could blame it on training or on not enough training.

[Tom Yum]

Lastly, if you really think that people who think that hiring four or five people to do security in a school system that doesn't have money for pencils is unlikely shouldn't be teaching, maybe you need to spend more time in a low-income school system instead of envisioning "reality-based scenarios." I'll believe it when I see it. TEACHERS HAVE TOLD ME THEY'VE BEEN ASKING FOR MORE SECURITY FOR YEARS and haven't gotten it. Maybe all of them shouldn't be teachers either because they're trying to look at things realistically.

You've got a noble cause, Tree.

Perhaps a program like Mike's could be a catalyst for change. Are there any statistics for incidents where teacher's interventions have stopped school related violence - whether it be gang related, massive student on student retaliation or acts from violent individuals?

Post them. Or post any incidents that support your claim. Doing so will only refine your idea and the discussion as a whole.

You keep bringing back the argument to school-yard bullying. That's a completely different matter and one that teachers should be able to manage. npk just showed an example that is beyond any normal teachers capabilities and job description.

The Columbine tragedy is another example.

The only thing you've done here is shoot down ideas; good ideas that have potential. You seem to be in favor of students rights over their safety. As a responsible adult, it should be the other way around.

Bring on the burn

[Tom Yum]

It's a tough call. My MA coach said that providing intel can be more important than being a martyr--but I don't think I could live with myself if I let little kids get shot. Obviously prevention is more important, how did the guy get in the school without anyone noticing to begin with?

Didn't you shoot down the idea of intel a few posts ago?

[npk9]

Wow - I got off easy. For now I suppose.

I personally think that all the problems stem from mismanagement from the school board - but hell what do I know I just work for an insurance company.

[treelizard]

Actually, Mike brought up bullying, and it's not a completely different matter but something that teachers can pay attention to long before anything happens and children end up killing others in a high school (like in Columbine.) I haven't looked for statistics but I know teachers that have worked in very violent school districts that they can and have stopped violence. If something escalates to the point Columbine did it means that people either missed the warning signs or did nothing.

Whether or not teachers can manage these types of things depends on their training.

I'm only shooting down "good ideas" because realistically they ain't gonna happen (based on what people i know who work in these school systems have been saying about measures they've tried to have the school district take and the school's reactions.)

I'm not in favor of student rights over safety, I'm just saying that their rights and decades of legal precedents aren't going to be magically overturned just because you wish upon a star.

[treelizard]

Didn't you shoot down the idea of intel a few posts ago?

Intel = teacher leaving the classroom to give a description of the bad guy to the police.

And the only thing I shot down was relying on the teeny tiny possibility of schools spending $250K on security. Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. 'Til then, I'll be organizing for teachers to get the education they need while we're waiting for money to fall from the sky.

[treelizard]

Wow - I got off easy. For now I suppose.

You didn't say anything stupid yet.

I personally think that all the problems stem from mismanagement from the school board - but hell what do I know I just work for an insurance company.

Actually, I'm more likely to blame the gunmen.

[Tom Yum]

I'm not in favor of student rights over safety, I'm just saying that their rights and decades of legal precedents aren't going to be magically overturned just because you wish upon a star.

Nothing wrong with being a little hard nosed, every now and then... ideas need to be tested against reality and possible pitfalls. If anything, you're refining Mike's idea rather than rejecting it.

If you could post the stats on teacher intervention on any of the mentioned forms of school violence, it would certainly add to the discussion. If not stats - documented instances.

The final test for the idea is to put it into action.

What was your thought process when you decided that intel wasn't such a 'stupid' idea?

[Tom Yum]

Intel = teacher leaving the classroom to give a description of the bad guy to the police. .

Anyone else have a comment on this?

We could use the Amish school shooting as an example.

And the only thing I shot down was relying on the teeny tiny possibility of schools spending $250K on security. Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. 'Til then, I'll be organizing for teachers to get the education they need while we're waiting for money to fall from the sky.

Again nothing wrong with being a skeptic.

If it were to come through, you could even try to take credit for it. And if that doesn't work, you could always scrutinize it more thoroughly until you find something wrong with it and protest it....