God hates America?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

You were talking out your ass. Put away the tye-dye T-shirt and grow up.

Like I said, if you currently critisize the US government you are quickly called a Hippy, a flamming liberal, a pinko or whatever namecalling people can comre up with

Then again with a democratic president, critisizing the person itself ( so not his or her policies) somehow is seen as patriotic by some

Ah well, lets al be happy we can and may critisize our government/senators/representatives
and it doesn't matter if itis the party I voted for ( the leftist pinko bastard party of holland) or one of the ruling parties ( christian "a Poster of a girl in bikini is inapropriate" mideaval party)

If your president or PM lies about something I think it is your partiotic duty to critisize
If our PM at the time told the representative that our troops would not be involved in any combat only in rebuilding and a year later we hear several times that dutch troops killed talibans, then I must critisize

If Bush didn't tell the truth about WMDs then either he should be critisized or if he didn't know, the person responsible should be ( Cheney maybe?)

Now a lot of people can't stand anybody critisizing their country, not just rightwing Americans. Example a dutch guy from Turkish decent felt insulted by a chinese professor that used and map with kurdistan as illustation for a lecture about the oillines, the guys demands an apology.

Everybody should feel free to critisize my country ( the Netherlands) but tell me something new because most I know:
We were the last to stop slavetrade ( well the West india company)
we used POWs to clear minefileds ( well the americans and the english did but we went along with it all to willing)
in the 50 we did some bad things in Indonesia ( and before that, read the Multatuli)
If you think you know anything I don't about my country fire away

Now all this critique doesn't mean I do not think my country is one of the best places to live because I would not want to live anywhere else
the same holds true for most who critisizing their country with the exeption of the WBC of Phelps and family

Want to close with the staement that the Freedom of speech it the one freedom that should be defended at all times

[gregimotis]

Like I said, if you currently criticize the US government you are quickly called a...

So what? You say what you (not you personally, I'm speaking generally now) like about my government, I say what I like about you.

Free societies are no place for the thin skinned.



Which comes back around to the thread - We don't deport Phelp's etc. because - satisfying as that might be in the short term - When you start punishing people for being jerks, you open the door for someone to decide who the jerks are. Next thing you know, they are deporting anti-war activists pot-advocates, NRA members, smokers, Ann Coulter (well, maybe that's okay)...

It's the 'ole 'I said nothing when they came for the gypsies, because I wasn't a gypsy...' business.

[Troll Virus]

We don't deport Phelp's etc. because - satisfying as that might be in the short term - When you start punishing people for being jerks, you open the door for someone to decide who the jerks are. Next thing you know, they are deporting anti-war activists pot-advocates, NRA members, smokers, Ann Coulter (well, maybe that's okay)...

All very true.
Is there anything that can be done about these people in democratic America though?
Freedom of speech I get that.
Freedom of idiocy I don't.
In some ways, I feel bad about this thread, because it gives these loons 'airtime'.

[gregimotis]

Freedom of speech I get that.
Freedom of idiocy I don't.

I know what you mean. Makes one pine for the 'Freedom of a quick pop in the mouth'.

[Troll Virus]

It's not criticism that earns people monikers like hippy and liberal. It's the particular kind of "criticism" they engage in. If people levelled real concerns and articulated them well, they'd be heard. People like Sean Hannity - a die-hard conservative - went after the Bush administration big time over immigration, and no one called him a hippy liberal because his criticisms werewll-founded and articulate. It's when those criticisms involve slinging insults about Bush' education or conspiracy theories about how he masterminded the entire 9-11 plot that people get called crackpots, and I believe rightfully so.

Honest criticism is always a good thing. But there's a very real and distinct difference between honest criticism and the podium thumping pre-pubescnt insult wars many people engage in under the guise of "criticism of the administration." The long and short of it is that if you want to criticise without getting ripped for it, be intelligent, articulate, and most of all, relevant.

So how relevant is 'Phelps' to you Mike?

[Troll Virus]

I refrained from responding directly on Phelps because I have not had adequate time to research the man or his statements. Give me a bit to do so, and I'll comment. From what you posted, it's easy to form an opinion, but I'd like to learn more in order to make an intelligent and defensible argument one way or the other. I'll try to get something posted today, but it might be tomorrow.

Wow, that's unusally fair.

Good on you!

[Troll Virus]

Unusually fair?

Well you said you'd look into it further before responding.
That's unusual, because most people would just snap out a response from the hip.
Yeah.
Unusual.

[jubaji]

I thought you meant unusual for me.

That is what he meant. He thought better of it and decided to cover his ass.

[treelizard]

It's not criticism that earns people monikers like hippy and liberal. It's the particular kind of "criticism" they engage in. If people levelled real concerns and articulated them well, they'd be heard. People like Sean Hannity - a die-hard conservative - went after the Bush administration big time over immigration, and no one called him a hippy liberal because his criticisms were well-founded and articulate. It's when those criticisms involve slinging insults about Bush' education or conspiracy theories about how he masterminded the entire 9-11 plot that people get called crackpots, and I believe rightfully so.

Honest criticism is always a good thing. But there's a very real and distinct difference between honest criticism and the podium thumping pre-pubescnt insult wars many people engage in under the guise of "criticism of the administration." The long and short of it is that if you want to criticise without getting ripped for it, be intelligent, articulate, and most of all, relevant.

Does that make Ann Coulter a liberal?

[Ahsen]

[


My thoughts on Phelps Trolls Virus well its thier opinion at the end of the day
But do they have to go so far about it ?

[Hikage]

Not neccessarily.
What are your own thoughts on Phelps etc Hikage?

Nope, it has no hope for defibrillation. It is going to spend the rest of it's life on the machine assisted life represented by bickering about free-speech and will never again see the WBC addressed.

-Hikage

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Surely you guys all remember your junior high and high school government lessons? There is a limit to free speech. Like all rights, the right to free speech is bounded on all sides by the rights of others, and in the case of free speech specifically by others' right to safety. The classic example is, it is not your right to free speech to stand up and yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, because it puts people in danger.

That's not to say directly that I think the WBC should be silenced, just pointing out the possible recourse citizens have against this sort of thing under the law. It's something I debate every so often with my friends, because I happen to interpret things in a way that hate speech causes its target groups to be put into danger, and thus, is not protected by the constitution.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Nope, it has no hope for defibrillation. It is going to spend the rest of it's life on the machine assisted life represented by bickering about free-speech and will never again see the WBC addressed.

-Hikage

a conversation isn't dead because the subject matter takes a turn in a different direction, but you're welcome to address the WBC however you like and i'm sure you'll get responses.

[Ahsen]

WBC whats that ?

[aseepish]

There is definitely a tension between absolute free speech and rights to equality. Do we allow neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers their say? The KKK? Is there a "market place" of ideas where the "truth" reigns or do some well-funded yet perverse ideologies risk overpowering others?

Majority rule brought Hitler to power in Germany, as well as Hamas to power in Palestine. Absolute free speech is a fiction in most of south-east asia, but I'd rather live in Singapore than Saudi Arabia.

If enough people say Paris Hilton is lovely and talented, then she is considered so. Man delights not me. Nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.