God hates America?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

WBC whats that ?

Westborow Baptist Church, the congrigation(sp?) of the Phelps family

[Troll Virus]

WBC whats that ?

Westboro Baptist Church.
The church Phelps is pastor of.

Westborow Baptist Church, the congregation(sp?) of the Phelps family

Whoops.
Leapfrog.

[Troll Virus]

[QUOTE=The_Judo_Jibboo;263793]

That's not to say directly that I think the WBC should be silenced, just pointing out the possible recourse citizens have against this sort of thing under the law. It's something I debate every so often with my friends, because I happen to interpret things in a way that hate speech causes its target groups to be put into danger, and thus, is not protected by the constitution.

Interesting approach.
In the whole documentary;
While picketing, there's an incident where a young child (looked about 8y/o) gets hit in the face by a large cup of ice & pop, thrown at him from a passing car.
At the very least there should be some law to stop their children being put in harms way like this.
Picketing the funerals of soldiers killed in the east and 'rejoicing' over their deaths is plain old fashioned evil. That's incitation, and it's only a matter of time before something tragic happens.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Surely you guys all remember your junior high and high school government lessons? There is a limit to free speech. Like all rights, the right to free speech is bounded on all sides by the rights of others, and in the case of free speech specifically by others' right to safety. The classic example is, it is not your right to free speech to stand up and yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, because it puts people in danger.

In my country we do not have free speech but freedom of expression, which yelling FIRE obviously is not

That's not to say directly that I think the WBC should be silenced, just pointing out the possible recourse citizens have against this sort of thing under the law. It's something I debate every so often with my friends, because I happen to interpret things in a way that hate speech causes its target groups to be put into danger, and thus, is not protected by the constitution.

I would ask myself how do they generate income and would look for ways to target that, as far as I can see it must be because some of them are laywers, well seeing that absolutely noone agrees with them for long ( even if you tell them you agree they will still tell you, you will go to hell) it should not be difficult to stop them getting any clients ( try picketing outside their office with sign: These people think you are not a good christian)

How DO the Phelbs generate income?

One way the damage they do is being limmited t by passing a law that no demonstrations and or pickets may take place within a certain radius of a funeral, I would raise that radius to 1 mile, that way is doesn't make sense anymore them shouting nowhere near the funeral

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Okay, TV,
I've had an opportunity to do some reading. It's not great research, as I haven't taken the time to really cross reference much. But from what I've read, here's my take on the relevance of Mr. Phelps and his movement.

He was born just a year before my grandfather and in the same part of the country. I mention this only because I have a good feel for how things generally worked in those days and in that place from my grandfather's stories. I think this upbringing may have had something to do with his early efforts to fight segregation and help abolish the so-called "Jim Crow" laws in his early days as a lawyer. Apparently, Phelps once truly worked for a more united and equal America. That appears to have changed when he was disbarred in the 70's.

His church is an indicator of sorts. I don't know what his true motives for starting a somewhat Calvinist church really were, but he has prolaimed himself and his family as "elected by God" to be eternally saved above the other members of his congregation for his willingness to preach the "truth." It was around the time that he was gaining national attention for his protests of "The Laramie Project" that he also threw his support at Fidel Castro and Saddam Hussein (and Al Gore, incidentally) for their anti-gay stances, among other things. When Al Gore changed his tune, Phelps protested him as well. He actually sends people all over the country to protest plays like the Laramie Project, and his cause has turned into a real "cult" following.

But enough backstory. The thing that makes me question the man and his beliefs is the timing of his disbarment and the founding of his "Church." He is someone that found national attention in fighting segregation. When that left him, he gained attention by proclaiming himself preordained for salvation, and a messenger of anti-gay rhetoric - even gospel - in America. Like most radicals, the only way to draw support is to stand out against something. Causes, like brand names, are not built on what they provide, but on what they oppose. (Highly recommended reading on the topic is "The Culting of Brands.") By polarizing himself, Phelps gains the support of anyone who also opposes gay rights. His more recent use of America itself as the target of his hate speech is just the natural progression of that same process. There is a distinct anti-US Government sentiment in America right now. No secret. Adjusting his campaigns to target America itself (and incidentally blaming the leaders everyone is already mad at) brings him support from a previously neutral fringe. You will see the same tactic used in almost every cult or radical movement from Jim Jones to radical Islam. Agendas will always adjust to fit the topic of the day, and causes will morph to include prominent headlines and concerns to draw in those who are on the fence.

Phelps is therefore relevant as an example - and a relatively transparent one - of how the cult movement works. He is obviously a radical and a crackpot crazy if he thinks that what he preaches is really true. The pure hatred that he spouts is utter nonsense, and nothing any Baptist or Christian would ever accept. But he seems an astute and educated man, and from his days as a segregation attorney, he realizes how powerful and enduring hate can be. Hate always stays hotter longer than compassion. It's reasonable, then, to assume he saw a pretty workable plan for attaining and keeping power and wealth by propegating hate. He was put out by the institutions he felt he'd helped (he did, after all make major strides in legal cases against discrimination before being disbarred), and he saw the deck stacked in favor of the very thing he'd been fighting. Not to stretch the issue too far off topic, but look at al-Qaeda's lists of stated goals, and you'll see the same progression. It morphs and adapts to current issues in order to keep support coming its way.

Anyway, I think Phelps is a shithead and a complete hypocrite. But his church and his activities are a valuable clue to the mindset of many of our enemies.

Correct me if i'm misinterpretting, but you seem to be saying he's choosing to oppose things that are already popular to oppose to an extent to gain a following? While there are plenty of people who oppose gay-rights or American policies, i don't think there's any "neutral fringe" that is being won over here. I'm not sure, but if you looked at their membership i think you'd find they are exactly growing exponentially. But i agree with your assessment of his motives in as much as they seem pretty transparently calculated. I doubt he feels the passion his followers do for their causes, he's a manipulative, opportunistic snake, which makes his actions that much more despicable.
Again as you pointed out, he seems to have picked a "workable plan" in which the ideals didn't matter whether they were from one end of the spectrum or the other since just like in any cult, the target is the weak minded.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

But I have a really hard time believing that anyone is going to be sucked in by the anti-American stuff as soon as they hear the other psycho stuff these people represent. Their platform excludes all but the nuttiest of the nutty. The two main planks of that platform are a perfect example, how many anti-gay folks do you know who also hate america? Typically doesn't go hand in hand. Not to mention the ridiculously extreme ends they take all their arguments to. Sure you can find a following who oppose the war in Iraq, but how many rejoice when soldiers die?

[DickHardman]

their only supporters are their family members.

im wondering why the government doesnt take her kids away? its not right for little kids to have to be brainwashed into hate machines by their nutcase mom.

the njweedman got his kids taken away and fired from his job just for making an pro marijuana commercial and posting it on the internet, but this lady can show up to the funerals of soldiers and hold signs that says thank god for ieds??

[jubaji]

Every, every, EVERY thread has to be about weed and/or UFOs with you.

[treelizard]

I'm pretty sure they passed laws against protesting at funerals in several states. I know they did in Kentucky and I think they were considering it in Maryland. There's also a group called the Patriot Guard Riders, and a few others with different names (the American Legion Riders, etc.), that show up to disrupt the protests. And it's not just soldiers that were targetted... I think there were protestors at Matthew Shepard's funeral.

[DickHardman]

Every, every, EVERY thread has to be about weed and/or UFOs with you.

please stop trolling our forum matt. ok? thanks.

[jubaji]

please stop trolling our forum ok? thanks.

Please stop trying to make EVERY thread about your personal pet obsessions, ok?

[Troll Virus]

I'm pretty sure they passed laws against protesting at funerals in several states. I know they did in Kentucky and I think they were considering it in Maryland. There's also a group called the Patriot Guard Riders, and a few others with different names (the American Legion Riders, etc.), that show up to disrupt the protests. And it's not just soldiers that were targetted... I think there were protestors at Matthew Shepard's funeral.

The documentary did say they were not allowed to picket within a given distance, which was a stones throw away.

At least they're not allowed to be in peoples faces.

as our friend from the Nederlands (Toudiyama) said though;

One way the damage they do is being limmited t by passing a law that no demonstrations and or pickets may take place within a certain radius of a funeral, I would raise that radius to 1 mile, that way is doesn't make sense anymore them shouting nowhere near the funeral

A mile outta do it.

[treelizard]

My bad, I didn't read the entire thread before posting.

[DickHardman]

Please stop trying to make EVERY thread about your personal pet obsessions, ok?

its funny that this guy thinks he has the right to tell anyone what to write when he posts nothing but negative comments, insults, and lame one liners 6000+ of them in fact.

[Ahsen]

Edited out

Aaseepish cleared it