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  • Hawk:

    Hey old man, don't think I haven't tried to puzzle this one out myself; there are a lot of suspicious "coincidences" surrounding that unpleasant incident. However, there is no ONE theory that is more compelling than any other. Also, I find it strange that NO ONE would have leaked the real story to a reputable source, like the Washington Post or somebody like that. After all, Nixon got caught. Wouldn't LBJ, or the Mafia, or whoever, be similarly vulnerable?

    Like I said, I go with the KGB, the most dangerous covert organization ever created. If anyone could get to Kennedy, it would have been them, and Oswald would have been the perfect tool (a committed Marxist-Leninist with Marine rifle training).

    However, I remain unconvinced. I am an analytical sort of guy; show me your evidence!

    BTW, what is your theory? And please, no space-critters.

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    • Man, there is just way too much to print here and not be here for days.

      Most of the people who were in a position to leak info, squeal or contradict the Warren Report version are dead. A small sampling:

      Warren Commission member Hale Boggs, who voiced "strong doubts" about the "magic bullet" and complained that the FBI was using "Gestapo tactics" to influence his conclusions: plane disappeared without a trace somewhere in Alaska

      Russian anti-Communist (with links to the CIA) George Demohrenschildt, friend of Oswald who stated that Oswald was innocent, hours before he was to be interviewed: committed "suicide" with a shotgun

      Marilyn Walle, stripper at Ruby's club who planned to write an "inside knowledge" book on the assassination: found shot to death

      Car salesman Albert Bogard, who claimed to ride with somebody claiming to be Oswald on a test-drive just prior to the killing: found dead in a Louisiana cemetery, ruled a "suicide"

      Dallas Deputy sheriff Buddy Walthers, who found a .45 slug in the Dealy Plaza grass (didn't fit "Oswald's" rifle) and turned it over to a man identifying himself as an FBI agent that day: killed in "police shoot-out"

      Original JFK autopsy photographer William Pitzer (whose photos many say demonstrate a fatal shot from the front): found dead of gunshot wound, "self-inflicted," .45 pistol in his right hand. He was left-handed.

      Former CIA agent Gary Underhill, who told his friends the CIA was involved in the JFK hit: found dead of "self-inflicted" gunshot through the left side of his head. He was right-handed.

      Lee Bowers Jr: in railroad yard control tower at time of JFK shooting (behind the Grassy Knoll), who saw two men and a flash of smoke by the fence: dead after he managed to drive into a bridge abutment

      David Ferrie: helped CIA train anti-Castro Cuban exiles outside New Orleans, who also worked for crime boss Carlos Marcello: dead of unusual "brain hemmorage" before he could testify in Garrison trial

      Ferrie friend and Cuban exile Aladio del Valle--also sought by Garrison: shot and head split with machete

      Ferrie friend Dr. Mary Sherman: shot in bed and set on fire

      Robert Perrin: whose wife worked for Jack Ruby and later testified that Ruby helped smuggle guns into Cuba: dead of poisoning

      Clyde Johnson, selected by Garrison to testify about connection between Clay Shaw, Ferrie, Oswald and Ruby (!!!): shotgunned to death by unknowns

      Dr. Nicholas Chetta, who performed the autopsies on Ferrie, Sherman and Perrin: dead of "heart attack" during Garrison's investigation.

      Clay Shaw: dead in '74. Neighbors reported seeing body brought in to the house earlier and later an ambulance taking it away. No autopsy.

      Mob figure Charles Nicoletti, scheduled to testify before Warren Commission: found in his burning car with three shots to the head

      Also slated to testify: mobsters John Roselli and Sam Giancana. Roselli: found dismembered in a barrell floating in Miami Bay. Giancana: gunned down in his own kitchen.

      Ruby: died in prison of "cancer."

      Coincidence?

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      • Re: Oswald. Yes, the perception forwarded by the Warren Commission about his was he was the commie "lone nut" gunman.

        Just like James Earl Ray was the racist "lone nut" gunman.

        And Sirhan Sirhan was... well just the "lone nut" gunman. LOL!

        Boy, that's a lot of loners. You'd think somebody could at least drive the getaway car!

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        • Ronin,
          The KGB is way down the list. No one knows for sure if
          Oswald was a committed Leninist-Marxist or not. He certainly wasn't committed enough to stay in Russia and it was remarkably easy for him to get back in the country at the height of the cold war. Oswald has been called everything from a traitor to a hero working deep cover. Evidence points both ways. The New Orleans connection between Oswald and the intelligence community of our country at the time has pretty much shown his parading around as a communist was BS. Oswald has been linked to the CIA, FBI, Mafia, and Marine Intelligence. Its not a coincidence IMO that one of the people named by a female operative as a shooter in the assassination was based with Oswald while he was in the Marines.
          Hawk

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          • Good Lord Tony! There are almost as many suspicious deaths connected to JFK as there are to the Clinton administration.

            good stuff

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            • So ya think we can turn him, Hawk?

              Or should we just leave him alone... he probably doesn't want to know

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              • Tony 10,
                It can go 50-50. Most want it the easy, convenient way.
                I like Ronin. Although he has liberal leanings he seems to want something solid to cling to. That puts him as not stereotype. For example: it became clear to me while we were debating about guns that (1)Its unthinkable to him that our soldiers would NOT obey their commander in chief and (2) his belief in the KGB being "the best spys" and behind Kennedy's death tells me that he just could never conceive the CIA, Secret Service, or FBI being in league with the Mafia to take out Kennedy. Its very easy, no matter what the evidence says, to blame the "bad guys", ex.Mafia, KGB, Lone Nut Commie LHO. However, the evidence supports what most don't want to believe. Its easy to find out how close the Mafia & CIA were during that time, but no one wants to believe it, or very few. However, I have faith in Ronin and Political Science Degree or not, I believe he'll come around. Another thing, Tony 10, Kilgalen knew, so I imagine someone else does too and for obvious reasons are keeping quiet. However, someday we'll know, I just hope I'm still around when the truth comes out.
                Hawk

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                • Hawk:

                  LMAO!

                  Why do you think I went back to school to get a REAL degree?! Poli-Sci has much BS. Actually, the one thing we learned to do well was analyze history based on all available information. I haven't seen a lot of the sources you guys are talking about, so that's why I say I'm skeptical. Actually, I have developed an elaborate conspiracy theory in which the CIA and Pentagon conspired to kill Kennedy - the thing is, I don't believe it, it's just a novel I want to write some day.

                  It's not INCONCEIVABLE to me that such a thing could happen. What I have trouble swallowing is that such a thing could be COVERED UP so well in a country like ours with such open access to information. It just seems like some kind of Woodward/Bernstein team would have tracked this one down by now. Or some government agency NOT on the take would have blown the whistle on the other one. Also, what about motive? Why take out Kennedy? He seemed pretty malleable, as presidents go. He was a Cold Warrior. What would be so objectionable about him to make rogue elements in our government turn on him?

                  As for the military's willingness to take orders: I HOPE they obey the commander-in-chief, but I realized during the whole gays-in-the-military fiasco that it's not as cut-and-dried as I would like. If the military DOESN'T follow orders, a scenario like the one you have described is much more likely. That would be part of my novel too.

                  I THINK that our political system is pretty stable, but, as I said before, you never know.

                  BTW Hawk, I like you too. You're a good guy, for a right-winger.

                  Comment


                  • Wow, you're going to be tougher than I thought. I admire your willingness to trust our government, though. I wish I still had that kind of optimism.

                    Why? There's a lot of reasons why, but I'll keep it to the greatest hits:

                    -The mafia helped him get elected, a well-documented fact. Tina Sinatra even spoke recently about how her father went to Chicago crime boss Sam Giancana on behalf of Joe Kennedy and asked for help "bringing in" the labor unions in a few Southern states, which of course were mob-controlled. They did it and Kennedy won (barely). After JFK gets in office, what does he do? He appoints RFK as Attorney General, and what does RFK do? He launches an unprecedented all-out assault on organized crime (the mob), which had remained relatively untouched previously due to their cozy relationship with the FBI and its queen, Hoover.

                    So now you've just pissed off two of the most powerful and deadly groups in the United States. BTW, J. Edgar Hoover hated both Kennedys with a passion.

                    -After the Bay of Pigs debacle (which, BTW, made JFK a THIRD group of fearsome enemies: anti-Castro Cuban exiles in America who felt betrayed, and who had close ties to--doh!--the CIA and FBI) Kennedy fired CIA chief Allen Dulles (that's FOUR now) and made no secret of his desire to dismantle the CIA (OOF! FIVE!), which he thought was out of control and unaccountable. The power and resources of the CIA during that time made it almost a shadow government (some would say THE government). And now you've got this new, liberal, civil-rights-lovin' rich boy saying he's going to tear it down. Dulles hated JFK, too, regardless.

                    FUN FACT: One of the members of the Warren Commission, getting to the bottom of JFK's assassination: Allen Dulles! Former CIA director fired by Kennedy! Woo-hoo!

                    -And another group we'll just call The Old White Guard (prime example: Hoover) HATED both the Kennedys for their civil rights agendas. I don't think it's any big suprise to you, Ronin, that there are plenty of people to this day who NEVER want to see an integrated American society. Whaddaya think it was like back then!?

                    Getting the idea yet? Notice nowhere above do you see the beloved communist party...

                    One theory goes that Giancana wanted to "cut off the head" so the tail would die (RFK). Well, when that didn't happen, RFK ended up with his own personal "lone nut" and--ta da!--now you've got Nixon as president. And why not take care of MLK in between? And Malcom X?

                    Who needs the KGB when you've got enemies like these?

                    As for nobody "blabbing" after all this time, one of Good Conspiracy 101's principles is: the less people who know, the harder it is to trace. Hell, Oswald himself (and James Earl Ray, natch) didn't seem to know what the hell they had gotten themselves into--which was more or less a covert pitch-and-switch, which neither of them figured out until it was too late! The classic "cell" construction: nobody knows what the other cell is doing; or, what they THINK they know is actually misinformation.

                    Sirhan Sirhan didn't even seem to know where the f__k he was as he was wrestled to the ground in that kitchen, which many say was courtesy of the CIA's MK-Ultra program, but we won't go there right now...

                    Those who did know... well you can see above what happened to them. And those who survived probably wanted to stay surviving...who can blame them?

                    [Edited by Tony10 on 10-19-2000 at 04:29 PM]

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                    • Tony10:

                      All plausible. Very plausible. Still no proof. Just a lot of unsubstaniated allegations.

                      Also, you conveniently left out the Cuban Missile Crisis, in which both Kennedy brothers averted nuclear war and humiliated Khruschev and the top Communist leadership, not to mention Fidel Castro. As deadly as those other guys you mentioned were, I don't think they come close to the ruthlessness and resources of the Soviet Union in those days. Possible exception: the CIA.

                      I'm not saying what you claim didn't happen. I'm just saying I need to see proof before I believe it. I also don't doubt that certain individuals WOULD consider whacking JFK - but there's a big difference between thinking it and doing it, especially when getting caught means a firing squad, at best.

                      Tony, it's all good. It's not that I necessarily "trust the Government", but I don't necessarily think that it's filled with malevolent, murderous psychotics either. Maybe it used to be worse. That's possible. You have certainly encouraged me to do more reading.

                      Like I don't have enough to do, dammit!!!

                      Later, dude.

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                      • Fair enough!

                        Man, has this thread mutated, or what!

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                        • This is why I think we should evaluate the structure of our government and modify our two party system. Instead of canidates seperating into two groups and battling each other we should soley focus on the canidates views so people are voting for canidates they agree with not just the person representing the party they do. We also need to change the way people are running for office because it seems to me the media basically determines who will do well and who will not . The person with the most coverage becomes more famous and alot of people will vote for them even though they don't know how they stand on alot of subjects and they don't know alot of the other canidates. There should somehow be a TV station, or something well known that gets across the nation, the canidates can have equal time slots in and show themselves to the public for free.

                          We need to end all this political BS and think about what is best for our country.

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                          • Not only has this thread mutated beyond recognition, it is also the longest thread I have ever seen!

                            Anyone remember another?

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                            • WOW!!!! This is some long stuff!

                              I only had time to read the last page, but I see you guys are still at it just like before. You never disappoint!

                              I may try to find a few spare minutes to go back and read some more.

                              And you thought I used to write a lot....LOL

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                              • Hey! Look who's back!

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