Senator Obama VS Senator Clinton

[Tom Yum]

Yeah, I ruined the whole italics thing I was going for. I think I need to call Matbla for some tech support!

I thought Matbla worked some kinda kids club?

[Liberty]

Seems you are still missing the point, you racist shit.

Jubaji, while I generally agree with Brewer's assessment of Obama, I fail to see how you are able to conclude that Ghost, by his remarks on the possible message Senator Obama’s election to the Presidency would send the world, is a racist.

During the Civil Rights Movement, the U.S. while negotiating with various Third World countries was reminded of it’s own unresolved Civil Rights issues each time it promised Democratic solutions to those it was negotiating with. As a result, the U.S., in order to save face was forced to intervene on behalf of the Civil Rights movement with it’s legislative and military might, as a means of proving that yes, America does care about the plight of these people (as hypocritical as that care was).

If you’re implying race is not an issue in this election, I have to strongly but respectfully disagree.

Respectfully, out of something my dad told me before going off to this stupid, wasteful war he never came back from – he said to me that anytime I deal respectfully with others, no matter what level they stoop to, I honor how he and my mom have raised me.

In other words, should you care to explore the race issue, I’d rather we were civil with one another. Towards that end, my apologies in advance if anything I’ve said here has somehow offended you.

[Liberty]

Mike, that's the way I was raised. To try to build and maintain bridges of communication between people before during and after.

As for your reply to my response to jubaji's declarations of Ghost as a racist, I agree with everything you said (especially the part about the dubiousness of other countries caring about us) but for two things: jab's word was "racist," not "poor arguement." Seccondly, a few minutes on the internet will verify Ghost's contention of how Obama is percieved around the globe as a hope for real change as a result of his name, skin color, and the foreign countries he spent his early years in, amongst other qualifications. Obama himself has alluded to as much.

Personally, I understand that. I've travelled some. Whenever I've encountered anyone from my own backyard, more often then not, the result has been instant preferential treatment from them.

Let's face it a commonality between people, which the internet shows people from other countries seem to share with Obama, as to race, name, common struggles, etc., is it's own brand, it's own instant influence amongst most people (not all, but most).

True, this does not speak of the man's qualifications.

And to interject Bruce Lee into it (you know I had to), what was the Green Hornet known as in Hong Kong? "The Kato Show." What was Chinese reaction to "Fists," "We are not sick men?" This guy, with a Chinese-American name, knows our pain. Which he certainly did.

Remember reading of the marketing-propaganda value of the American name, Joe Lewis, around the globe, when he was set to fight Nazi Germany's Max Schmeling in 1936, was it? Jesse Owens, for that matter. How it stirred America to greater greatness.

America temporarily buried what was in it's mind Lewis' and Owens' unforgivable skin color, as Lincoln had done when he finally set in motion freeing slaves (he'd openely declared lesser beings) so as to deplete the South of it's vast free army (slaves) in order to win the war the North was losing.

Point is, America has for decades known the power of racial, religious issues that move both it's citizens and those of the world. Obama has that instantly.

That may be racist on the part of those who go by that, "rather than the content of character," but that does not automatically make someone who has noted these things a racist.

Fact is, a search on the internet reveals that around the globe people feel the man, Obama, might be able to relate to them given the issues he's encountered in America given his name, father's religion, and skin color, along with other qualities he each day shows greater ability at.

Again, that is not enough in my book, but it is a heck of marquee value given how negatively the US is currently viewed by countries it has to deal with.

And why not? Why not let what is still the greatest country on the planet, inspite of it's unresolved issues with race, why not let it rise to even the greater heights Obama may bring it to if he is sincere, if he is the amazingly rapid learner and stratgeist he continues to prove himself to be? If pople around the globe will give America at least a hearing for the man's name, skin color or whatever, I have no problem with that. If that can be a cataylyst for the beginnings of real change what's wrong with that?

[Liberty]

Mike, I agree with you on McCain's record and qualifications. I do question his "more of the same" mentality, however. You have misunderstood my point. Read it again. Until now, I was not "voting" for Obama on this, merely pointing out his global marquee value. I have questioned his qualifications - what qualificationns?

While also siding with Ghost's point. As for the racism, I've thought about that further and have concluded that "identification" by the downtrodden with someone who might possibly know where they are coming from (having come from that himself) is not racism anymore than young hoods trusting a former hood to better understand them, than say some Doctorate in Sociology would, and thus standing a better chance at reaching them, is racism.

I don't know, pehaps this aspect is not in your make-up to understand. You don't have to deal with the constant nonsense black people, brown Hispanics, Muslims, Hindus, anyone who is not white in America has to deal with more often then not.

It's amazing to me how whites continue to be blind to this issue.

You have helped me decide one thing, though. To my surprise, to vote for Obama. He cannot do any worse than Bush has. That McCain may be qualified but what he will do with those qualifications can not be any better than someone who, though inexperienced, has surrounded himself with people who are. That Obama's possible screw-ups can be no worse than McCain's, given his "more of the same" mentality will certainly be.

Respectfully we just don't see eye to eye on this one. It'll be interesting what the next four years will bring.

Of course, should you ever run for President, you can count on my vote. I still think you're fair above most.

[Ghost]

Its politically correct to assume race doesnt make any difference and that no one should be voted on for their race. However, it is also naive to assume it makes no difference.

I think (or at least hope) that most people can see that race does make a difference to other people around the world.
Baracks middle name is Hussein, this name carries weight in the middle east if you like it or not.
It means that you will be treated differently, with more respect, than if your name is John McCain. It doesnt matter if you like the reasons why or not, its just a fact that this is what will happen.
Beyond the middle east the very fact that there is a black president sends a clear message to the world that America has reached a stage, a stage where it can see past racial differences and the color of someones skin. Contradiction right? Wrong.
The fact that you would be able to vote for a black president shows you are at that stage, even if your motivation is to purely gain brownie points for the states. You are still capable of voting for someone that is black.

Lets remember here that a president is a frontman for a party. He will have his policies but he will also have a ton of advisors, lets not pretend the president runs the entire country by himself, he does no such thing.

Where america sits right now it is at the absolute bottom of the pits in international standing. I cant think of a time when it has been more hated. It needs to address this. Problems such as terrorism and the wars America is fighting are due to Americas actions overseas. Most of the world see America as the bad guy, thats just how it is. Some aid going here and there does not make up for years of messing around in everyone elses affairs and in their backyard.
Saddam was put there by the Americans, Bin Laden is ex CIA, the Americans support the absolute scandal that is the policy of Israel and the list goes on.
The only people in the world that agree with America are by no surprise, other Americans.
So what will a black president achieve. Well if hes smart he will achieve wiping the slate clean for America.

Disassociation is the name of the game. Its a chance on an international/world scale for America to be perceived as making a fresh start, which is exactly what it will be seen as, numerous documentaries on CNN have shown this already. With Obamas anti war policy I think we could enter a new era for America.

I really fail to see that we need to stick to the ideas we learned in school that race doesnt matter. I think its a lovely idea to pretend that race doesnt matter. I dont see any reason that someone shouldnt be voted for on the colour of their skin if its in a positive manner.
I think we need to break the cast on thinking in this regard and throw away our politically correct thinking caps and get real about world issues and the implications of race.

[jubaji]

I dont see any reason that someone shouldnt be voted for on the colour of their skin

That's because you are a racist piece of shit (as well as an ignorant simpleton)

[Ghost]

That's because you are a racist piece of shit (as well as an ignorant simpleton)

People are chosen by their race every day for a variety of reasons. This isnt using race in a negative way its using it in a positive way and is not racist. Racism is to feel your race is superior that of others, this has nothing at all to do with that.

[Tom Yum]

People are chosen by their race every day for a variety of reasons.

This is true.

This isnt using race in a negative way its using it in a positive way and is not racist.

Then why not use someone like Obama in a job like Secretary of State, since this would more positively and even better, efficiently use Obama's race and skin color to deal frequently with foreign nationals in the Middle East or Africa?

If you want to use race to represent the people of the United States, take a look at the demographics - that would shift the representative to be of mostly caucasian decent. But the reason why we pick leaders is to lead, not so much for the color of their skin.

McCain's got the most experience leading.

[Ghost]

This is true.



Then why not use someone like Obama in a job like Secretary of State, since this would more positively and even better, efficiently use Obama's race and skin color to deal frequently with foreign nationals in the Middle East or Africa?

If you want to use race to represent the people of the United States, take a look at the demographics - that would shift the representative to be of mostly caucasian decent. But the reason why we pick leaders is to lead, not so much for the color of their skin.

McCain's got the most experience leading.

He has experience in the kind of leadership the rest of the world arent very interested in, though i know he is a very capable man and i like him, he made a bad decision supporting the war in Iraq. I feel that Obama will try to do things differently and will be received differently.
McCain will not be welcomed in the places where it matters in the world. Obama will be.
In this single instance, just this once i think race is critical, after this having being done once it will never be relevant again. The first time for this to happen is critical and it couldnt happen at a better time, when America needs it most.
Quite simply Obama can open doors that McCain never can, ever. Simply because of name and race. Thats just how the world works. Therefore he would get my vote.
It is also critical that he is president. I think many realise this and this is why he is getting so many votes.
But like i said, once its been done, if he gets it right then it wont ever happen again and race will largely not matter.

[Tom Yum]

He has experience in the kind of leadership the rest of the world arent very interested in, though i know he is a very capable man and i like him, he made a bad decision supporting the war in Iraq. .

Do you think the rest of the world would be interested in his experience when dealing with terrorists? That's not just an American issue, seeing that groups actively and almost freely recruit right inside the UK.

Terrorists don't care that your country openly and freely accepts thousands of refugees from their countries.

Besides, its an American election - not a global one.

I feel that Obama will try to do things differently and will be received differently..

Negative. He already stated he'd go into Pakistan to hunt down terrorists.

McCain will not be welcomed in the places where it matters in the world. Obama will be...

Where?

I'd wager that McCain would be more respected by our East and South East Asian and Latin American neighbors - since they respect age and maturity and are perfectly fine with Caucasian looking leaders.

Same with Russia. Who would Putin more likely respect, regardless whether he'd like or not - McCain or Obama - and that's an easy one

Quite simply Obama can open doors that McCain never can, ever. Simply because of name and race. Thats just how the world works. Therefore he would get my vote....

See above.

But race isn't the only thing that open's doors, my friend. Some of it is interpersonal, political ideology and economic.

Look at the Chinese in Africa...

Gotta run guys. Stuff to do all day.

[Ghost]

Do you think the rest of the world would be interested in his experience when dealing with terrorists? That's not just an American issue, seeing that groups actively and almost freely recruit right inside the UK.
They recruit though based on the same kind of decisions that mccain supports
Terrorists don't care that your country openly and freely accepts thousands of refugees from their countries.

Besides, its an American election - not a global one.
Its global, dont doubt that, in its effect its global, the whole world is watching.



Negative. He already stated he'd go into Pakistan to hunt down terrorists.
IF you were going to go anywhere this is where you should have gone. Its where the terrorists actually are, as Obama rightly said, AlQueda werent in Iraq until America turned up.




Where?

I'd wager that McCain would be more respected by our East and South East Asian and Latin American neighbors - since they respect age and maturity and are perfectly fine with Caucasian looking leaders.
These areas are not your problem though, the middle east is.

Same with Russia. Who would Putin more likely respect, regardless whether he'd like or not - McCain or Obama - and that's an easy one
McCain will be a disaster for this, he will be as bad as Putin for all the hawkish talk, Obama will be more relaxed which is just what we need. I mean who the hell blames the russians for wanting to expand thier military i would if i was them. America agreed after WW2 not to expand into eastern europe as part of the deal at the end of the war, now they are bullding a missile defense system there. Regardless of who its to protect against its on russias border and in conflict with what america agreed to, of course they are a problem, they are a problem becasue of america as per usual.



See above.

But race isn't the only thing that open's doors, my friend. Some of it is interpersonal, political ideology and economic.
I think Obama has several times more interpersonal skill than McCain, hes proved that in his speeches where as McCain rambles and mumbles

Look at the Chinese in Africa...

Gotta run guys. Stuff to do all day.

[jubaji]

Besides, its an American election - not a global one.
Its global, dont doubt that.

You really are a fucking moron, aren't you? Is this D.I. under another screen name?

[Liberty]

....Problems such as terrorism and the wars America is fighting are due to Americas actions overseas. Most of the world see America as the bad guy, thats just how it is. Some aid going here and there does not make up for years of messing around in everyone elses affairs and in their backyard. Saddam was put there by the Americans, Bin Laden is ex CIA, the Americans support the absolute scandal that is the policy of Israel and the list goes on. The only people in the world that agree with America are by no surprise, other Americans..

Ghost while I agree with this assesment it's only half the picture. Let's be fair. The other aspect of terrorism is their own imperialistic empire building agendas. In other words, if Brewer were right, that the U.S. has nothing but altruistic motives in it's aid t other countries, terrorism would still have risen; for these people have the same agenda U.S. governement policy has had since it's founding. The U.S. is just "more experienced" at it. To be fair, these terrorists, on both sides of the fence, and whatever their "cloak of maliciousness" (good they hide behind - be it aid supposedly for it's own sake, the glory of Allah, or what have you).

Still, the U.S. has a better chance of turning things around then anyone else out there. Of course, ceasing believing we are so wonderful and our leaders, who pull all kinds of nonsense on each other during ellections, are so benevolent once they reach office, would help.

[jubaji]

People are chosen by their race every day for a variety of reasons. This isnt using race in a negative way its using it in a positive way and is not racist. Racism is to feel your race is superior that of others, this has nothing at all to do with that.

Judging, choosing, or treating people a certain way on the basis of their race is racism, you fucking moron.

[Liberty]

One of Obama's advisors on some of his Foreign Policy:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErOmu7VdVO4[/YOUTUBE]