door work

[Ghost]

anyone got any experience of doorwork, US or UK, and tips thoughts etc they would be willing to share?

thanks

[Guest]

Yes mate, did some doorwork in my 20's across a few locations. Nothing serious, but happy to share my thoughts. Maybe best as a PM, not a fan of telling streetfighting stories.

[Tant01]

Please... do tell.

I've whupped a few ninjas in my day.

Wouldn't exactly call it "door" work but the floor worked...

Eh?

LOL

[sikal]

I was a bouncer for about a year at a bar here in Louisville. It wasn't a particularly rough bar - though I did have some interesting situations and a few of them could have been *very* bad. Most people, though, when I asked them to leave would leave without a fight. They'd cuss and moan some but not give me any real problem. Usually when one did try to give me a problem I'd shut him down very quickly (I'll explain how in a minute) - but I never injured anyone nor took any injury myself.

I wasn't given any guidelines when I started the job but I did come up with my own based on lessons learned from experience. Here the things I did from a strategic perspective - I'll discuss physical tactics next.

If the TM (trouble maker) was with a group then I'd quietly pull someone else (someone who seemed more level headed) out of the group and ask them to keep an eye on their friend. Obviously I would do this at the first signs of trouble from the person and well before I felt compelled to deal with the TM myself. If the friend was able to keep the TM in line then it saved everyone some headaches and potential bad feelings. Of course, I'd still keep an eye on them.

If a situation did erupt before I had a chance to do something about it then my personal policy was that everyone involved had to leave - even if it seemed obvious that one person had totally instigated it. Early on I had a situation where I didn't do this. I had seen the whole thing from start to finish - it went from 0 to "oh crap!" before I was able to get across the room - and I had seen that one of the guys had started it and was completely to blame. I asked him to leave. Before long friction started forming between some of the friends of the 2 guys. I managed to get that under control before it escalated too far but it was heading in a very bad direction and it was more luck than anything else that prevented it from being a real problem.

Some things I had pointed out to me by a man named Tony Kirkbride. He was a retired SFPD officer and did a lot of research into the legal issues surrounding use of force. Of course it varies from state to state and, even more so, from country to country but the guidelines he gave were pretty basic and seem like a reasonable foundation for making some use of force decisions. He said that the only times you, as a private citizen, can touch someone without their express permission are: social intimacy (brushing against someone in a crowd or tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention), administering first aid (unless they specifically refuse), preventing someone from harming you or another or arresting someone ("citizen's arrest"). With those guidelines in mind it's pretty obvious that a bouncer (or other people who work security) is on some pretty shaky ground.

That leads me to some of the basic tactics I used.

When I would approach someone I would come up on them obliquely if possible and, preferably, with them between me and the door. I would place one hand on the arm nearest me just above their elbow. No force in the touch, it was mostly just to get their attention. It also gave me some control over their axis so I could make it difficult for them to turn to face me. I would extend my other hand in front of their chest (not touching). This served two purposes. One, it directed them toward the door and, two, it set up a "frame." If they tried to turn and attack I would prevent the axis turn and disrupt their balance with the hand on their arm. If they're off balance they can't kick very well and, in fact, can't punch very well but the punch with their free hand is the most likely attack. My hand extended in front of their chest is in position to deal with that fist if they do fire it.

While doing the above I would also crowd them - often without actually touching them aside from the light touch on their arm. I would get all up into their personal space. Most people aren't comfortable with that and will reflexively move away from it. Remember that I always tried to put them between me and the door? That means their reflexive motion to get away from me crowding them would move them toward the door. I would continue crowding them and monitoring their arm while directing them toward the door. In this way I "herded" people out the door. Only on a couple of occasions did anyone manage to turn and even start to give me any trouble. When that happened I would shut down their attempts using trap hands principles. When done well this makes the person feel like their being smothered and it's a very helpless feeling. I never had anyone get past that point. In the midst of smothering their attempted attack I'd regain axis control, aim them toward the door and go back to "herding" them.

There were two humorous exceptions to this. One guy, after I'd aimed him toward the door and got him moving, kept trying to turn around. I started jabbing his shoulder blades (pretty hard) with my fingers. I'm sure he had some bruises the next day but I doubt I would have gotten more than a slap on the wrist even if he had made an issue of it later. The other was a guy, really drunk, who kept trying to "stumble" into pretty women on his way toward the door. After I realized he was intentionally trying to cop feels I took hold of his jacket sleeves and literally steered him toward the door. He started to protest and I said, "Hey, man, you seem a little shaky on your feet. I'm just trying to make sure you don't trip and hurt yourself." He actually thanked me and we made it the rest of the way out the door without further incident.

Those were the methods I employed and they worked really well for me. I escorted dozens of people out during that year and never had any serious situations. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most of the people I escorted out didn't even realize I was employed by the bar. I had one tell me later (he wasn't banned for life, just for that night) that, even after I saw him out, he didn't realize I was the bouncer. He said he wasn't even sure that I was an employee of the bar. He half thought I was just a regular who was trying to help out the bar.

Hope this helps. I've talked to quite a few other bouncers over the years - and had some as students - and the ones who have the least problems (even in some pretty rough places) use methods very similar to what I've described here.

I'd highly recommend "Cheap Shots, Ambushes, And Other Lessons: A Down And Dirty Book On Streetfighting & Survival" by Marc MacYoung.

Another book I'd recommend based on things I've heard from sources I trust is "The Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling" by Peyton Quinn

Mike
The

[Ghost]

very interesting, thanks for that, read it all, how dangerous overall would you say it was?

I was a bouncer for about a year at a bar here in Louisville. It wasn't a particularly rough bar - though I did have some interesting situations and a few of them could have been *very* bad. Most people, though, when I asked them to leave would leave without a fight. They'd cuss and moan some but not give me any real problem. Usually when one did try to give me a problem I'd shut him down very quickly (I'll explain how in a minute) - but I never injured anyone nor took any injury myself.

I wasn't given any guidelines when I started the job but I did come up with my own based on lessons learned from experience. Here the things I did from a strategic perspective - I'll discuss physical tactics next.

If the TM (trouble maker) was with a group then I'd quietly pull someone else (someone who seemed more level headed) out of the group and ask them to keep an eye on their friend. Obviously I would do this at the first signs of trouble from the person and well before I felt compelled to deal with the TM myself. If the friend was able to keep the TM in line then it saved everyone some headaches and potential bad feelings. Of course, I'd still keep an eye on them.

If a situation did erupt before I had a chance to do something about it then my personal policy was that everyone involved had to leave - even if it seemed obvious that one person had totally instigated it. Early on I had a situation where I didn't do this. I had seen the whole thing from start to finish - it went from 0 to "oh crap!" before I was able to get across the room - and I had seen that one of the guys had started it and was completely to blame. I asked him to leave. Before long friction started forming between some of the friends of the 2 guys. I managed to get that under control before it escalated too far but it was heading in a very bad direction and it was more luck than anything else that prevented it from being a real problem.

Some things I had pointed out to me by a man named Tony Kirkbride. He was a retired SFPD officer and did a lot of research into the legal issues surrounding use of force. Of course it varies from state to state and, even more so, from country to country but the guidelines he gave were pretty basic and seem like a reasonable foundation for making some use of force decisions. He said that the only times you, as a private citizen, can touch someone without their express permission are: social intimacy (brushing against someone in a crowd or tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention), administering first aid (unless they specifically refuse), preventing someone from harming you or another or arresting someone ("citizen's arrest"). With those guidelines in mind it's pretty obvious that a bouncer (or other people who work security) is on some pretty shaky ground.

That leads me to some of the basic tactics I used.

When I would approach someone I would come up on them obliquely if possible and, preferably, with them between me and the door. I would place one hand on the arm nearest me just above their elbow. No force in the touch, it was mostly just to get their attention. It also gave me some control over their axis so I could make it difficult for them to turn to face me. I would extend my other hand in front of their chest (not touching). This served two purposes. One, it directed them toward the door and, two, it set up a "frame." If they tried to turn and attack I would prevent the axis turn and disrupt their balance with the hand on their arm. If they're off balance they can't kick very well and, in fact, can't punch very well but the punch with their free hand is the most likely attack. My hand extended in front of their chest is in position to deal with that fist if they do fire it.

While doing the above I would also crowd them - often without actually touching them aside from the light touch on their arm. I would get all up into their personal space. Most people aren't comfortable with that and will reflexively move away from it. Remember that I always tried to put them between me and the door? That means their reflexive motion to get away from me crowding them would move them toward the door. I would continue crowding them and monitoring their arm while directing them toward the door. In this way I "herded" people out the door. Only on a couple of occasions did anyone manage to turn and even start to give me any trouble. When that happened I would shut down their attempts using trap hands principles. When done well this makes the person feel like their being smothered and it's a very helpless feeling. I never had anyone get past that point. In the midst of smothering their attempted attack I'd regain axis control, aim them toward the door and go back to "herding" them.

There were two humorous exceptions to this. One guy, after I'd aimed him toward the door and got him moving, kept trying to turn around. I started jabbing his shoulder blades (pretty hard) with my fingers. I'm sure he had some bruises the next day but I doubt I would have gotten more than a slap on the wrist even if he had made an issue of it later. The other was a guy, really drunk, who kept trying to "stumble" into pretty women on his way toward the door. After I realized he was intentionally trying to cop feels I took hold of his jacket sleeves and literally steered him toward the door. He started to protest and I said, "Hey, man, you seem a little shaky on your feet. I'm just trying to make sure you don't trip and hurt yourself." He actually thanked me and we made it the rest of the way out the door without further incident.

Those were the methods I employed and they worked really well for me. I escorted dozens of people out during that year and never had any serious situations. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most of the people I escorted out didn't even realize I was employed by the bar. I had one tell me later (he wasn't banned for life, just for that night) that, even after I saw him out, he didn't realize I was the bouncer. He said he wasn't even sure that I was an employee of the bar. He half thought I was just a regular who was trying to help out the bar.

Hope this helps. I've talked to quite a few other bouncers over the years - and had some as students - and the ones who have the least problems (even in some pretty rough places) use methods very similar to what I've described here.

I'd highly recommend "Cheap Shots, Ambushes, And Other Lessons: A Down And Dirty Book On Streetfighting & Survival" by Marc MacYoung.

Another book I'd recommend based on things I've heard from sources I trust is "The Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling" by Peyton Quinn

Mike
The

[Ghost]

I actually think it would be highly relevant to the forum but either via the forum or PM any thoughts would be great as always.

Yes mate, did some doorwork in my 20's across a few locations. Nothing serious, but happy to share my thoughts. Maybe best as a PM, not a fan of telling streetfighting stories.

[sikal]

very interesting, thanks for that, read it all, how dangerous overall would you say it was?

That'll vary from bar to bar. The bar I worked at was pretty laid back with a pretty good clientele. There were a couple of situations that had the potential to be *very* bad.

Example A: A guy, I'll call him John, gets in a shoving match with another guy, Jim, in the hallway outside the bathroom. I break it up and ask them both to leave. Jim shrugs his shoulders and leaves without a problem. John, on the other hand, starts getting more and more agitated as I lead (herd) him toward the door. I get him outside and he starts getting a little violent trying to come back in. He keeps saying his girlfriend's in the back and he needs to go talk to her. The owner calls the cops (like I said the guy was starting to get violent) and one of the servers overhears and asks the guy, "Was it the girl you were sitting with at the bar in the back room?" It was. The server knows who it is and heads back there. By the time the girlfriend gets up to the front door the cops are there and she starts trying to stick up for him with the cops. Things pretty quickly spiraled out of control and the cops took them both into custody. Turned out that the girlfriend had a pistol in her purse. We're pretty sure that's what the guy was actually trying to get to (though we could be wrong).

Example B: 2 guys, Ron & Tim this time (;-D), were causing trouble in the bar - slapping women on the butt, trying to pick fights with guys, etc. I asked them to leave and, surprisingly, they went with little more than some mumbled cussing. Then they get out on the sidewalk and resume their antics with passerby. The owner again calls the cops to come pick this jackasses up and John (the doorman) and I walk out to try to keep a lid on things until the cops get there. Here come 4 Hispanic guys and Ron starts mouthing off at them. They turn around ready to fight. One grabs Ron's shirt and hauls back his fist. I stepped between them before that punch got launched so I moved pretty quick but we'll pause here for my internal dialog. "If they were 10 feet farther down the sidewalk, I'd just laugh while Ron & Tim got their clocks cleaned but they're not. They're right in front of the plate glass window on the front of the bar and there are patrons sitting on the other side." (insert mental imagery of guillotine-like shards of glass crashing down and blood and body parts everywhere) "Crap! I gotta do step in. There's a *high* probability that all 6 of those guys are going to turn on me when I do and, statistically speaking, there's a good chance that at least one of those Hispanics has a blade. OK. I know that John has been in some scrapes but I don't know how much I can really rely on him so I have to assume 3-1 odds at best and probably 6-1 odds ... and probably at least one blade in the mix. Fine. If someone swings on me or I see someone reaching for a weapon I'm going to kill all of them." I don't know if I actually *could* have done so but that was literally my mindset. I stepped between Ron and the guy about to punch him and I popped them in the chest hard enough to (a) make them step back from each other and (b) get their attention. I then said in a very loud and authoritative voice, "That's enough! You guys go that way and you guys go the other way." (pointing in the directions - this also allowed me to keep my hands up and in motion in case someone did swing). It *immediately* deescalated. Tim grabbed Ron and said, "Dude, let's get outta here before they call the cops." (the cops rolled around the corner literally about 2 seconds later and arrested Ron & Tim). The Hispanic guy who was about to punch Ron said, "Hey, man, it wasn't me." I said, "I know that. Keep walking." He and his friends did just that. If things had went a little bit different I might not be typing this right now.

Example 3: 2 guys having an argument across the room from me and it's starting to move into shoving and posturing - and from there likely into a fight. I start making my way through the room and a guy sitting at one of the tables stands up and starts walking in front of me. I think, "Huh? He looks like he's intent on the same destination as I am. Bathrooms are over there. Maybe he's headed there - but that's not the vibe I'm getting." As he walks past a pool table he picked up a ball and I thought, "Ah hah! If you're taking that into the bathroom with you, I don't want to think about it so I'm going to assume you're planning to hit someone with it." (I didn't literally think that but it is a funny thought). I sped up my pace (I was only a couple of steps behind him) and caught hold of the ball with my left hand while slapping the back of his hand with my right. His reflexive response weakened his grip and I took it from his hand. He spun around and I said, "Not tonight. Let's go." I motioned to one of the bartenders to help and together we herded all three guys out of the bar.

These were the three most potentially dangerous situations I had during my year there. A guy who trained with me for a while, though, named Andrew was also a bouncer. He worked in a really rough bar, though. One night he escorted a guy out. The guy's wife saw and came over to object. She started getting ugly about it and he escorted both of them out. As soon as he let go of the guy outside the guy turned and swung. Andrew avoided that punch - and moved right into the path of the purse that the wife was swinging at him. It dropped him to a knee and dazed him. He looked up and saw the wife reaching into her purse. He started to stand and she pulled out a pistol and shot him in the leg. At that point a couple of the other bouncers got there and managed to get the pistol away without further problem and the cops arrived soon thereafter (the police station is literally right across the parking lot from the bar - about 30 yards).

Security work (of any kind - I've also done some uniformed security work) is best described as long periods of boring tedium with spurts of very high and potentially dangerous activity. One of my students was a "Loss Prevention Officer" at a store here in Louisville. Usually the people he busted were pretty compliant but more than a few fought with him and his partner. One guy pulled some sort of kitchen knife. My student, Matt, said he was never more thankful to his training in Filipino martial arts than at that moment. He managed to keep the guy under enough control that (a) the guy didn't get away and (b) Matt didn't get cut. He dealt within solo for a few seconds until his partner got there and together they were able to disarm the guy and restrain him until the cops arrived.

Even the most mundane security job has the potential to be dangerous. Another student of mine, Eddie, was doing bike security on a college campus. Mostly he rode around looking for people who'd parked illegally. One night, though, he encountered a homeless guy sleeping in one of the parking garages. He woke the guy up and the guy grudgingly left. A few days later Eddie saw this guy's face on the news (though they didn't catch the guy for a couple more years) - it was this guy: ANGEL MATURINO RESENDEZ: THE RAILROAD KILLER - Crime Library on truTV.com

You never know.

Mike

[CallumDegraves]

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