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Thats a pretty good post actually. Id say im fully aware that MT is lacking in areas but has lot of good points making it worth studying, same can be said for BJJ.
Ive studied arnis at home in the UK under a highly respected instructor and i spent 6 months living in cebu and manilla learning doce paris and pikiti tersia. Id certainly say i added useful tools to my thai boxing including the techniques you listed as well stomps and so on.
Very useful addition to the thai boxing but they spar in escrima/arnis. and in unarmed i totally outclassed them. Because of my thai boxing.
I dont agree with not having MT as a base and elbow conditioning and shin conditioning arent a big part.
However you make many valid points as well that i do agree with.
I guess that comes down to personal point of view and personal preference.
Ive studied arnis at home in the UK under a highly respected instructor and i spent 6 months living in cebu and manilla learning doce paris and pikiti tersia. Id certainly say i added useful tools to my thai boxing including the techniques you listed as well stomps and so on.
Very useful addition to the thai boxing but they spar in escrima/arnis. and in unarmed i totally outclassed them. Because of my thai boxing.
I dont agree with not having MT as a base and elbow conditioning and shin conditioning arent a big part.
However you make many valid points as well that i do agree with.
I guess that comes down to personal point of view and personal preference.
Originally posted by Uke
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I wouldn't start with MT as a base period, just like I wouldn't start off with boxing. I would take elements from each of those arts but I wouldn't base everything I did off of them. It could be done, and I've seen other people's interpretations of MT and boxing as dirty street arts. Some were really good at defending themselves using dirty boxing, but it relied heavily on the fact that they were faster or bigger than their opponents.
I don't believe that its intelligent to use an art whose effectiveness is predicated on attributes instead of systematic attrition as a base or core art. Muay thai relies HEAVILY on conditioning of the shins and elbow(usually the ulna though). Muay Thai is a form of boxing, so it relies heavily on better than average conditioning. Muay thai, like boxing, also relies heavily on the speed of the delivery of mid ranged kicks and punches to get to the clinch.
I think the tools that MT uses are fantastic. They are very powerful. I just know that they can be better applied than from a boxing approach. Many SD systems use punches, but aren't actually teaching boxing. It's the same principle.
A good base/core is a system or set of skills that nearly anyone can do while staying in the precepts of SD. Jujitsu, kali, arnis, silat, arnis, WWII combatives are all systems that aren't rule based so that you can avoid developing bad habits like hesitation and pulling punches, but are all created in a manner where small people including women and teens can be effective. Once you get solid skills in one of those, make it nasty by adding in gouges, pokes, rips, nasty low-lined kicks and stomps, hair pulling, biting, etc.
I was reading through a review of a MA dvd and I feel that what the reviewer had to say is relevant here in this reply:
"I have seen former highly skilled "Masters" in various arts get older themselves, sustain injuries, and at times lose 80-90% of their former kicking skill, themselves getting to the point where their own kicks look like blue belts. Hey, lets face it, hard style arts will likely do that when it comes too kicking! Yet these same "Masters" will often continue saying to the world "I'm a TKD 8th Dan" yet can't kick anymore??? What does that 8th Dan now mean if their kicks look no better than a blue belts? Does it simply mean "I was good at one time, I can't kick anymore due to my knees, but let me teach you how to wear-out your knees too"? Ever heard the saying "stop the insanity"? What about a middle aged adult, or even older adult, who wants to begin martial arts late in life, or only wants to learn self-defense? Do you really think most stand a good chance of learning how to throw spectacular head-high kicks? Yet kicking arts often brainwash everyone, no matter what age, into believing "kicking head high is self-defense". I don't understand why these older "Masters" with blown-out-knees don't learn better for themselves."
The man who wrote that is a high ranking practitioner of TKD, but it applies to all kicking arts like TKD, Muay Thai, Shotokan, Kyokushin, Tang Soo Do, Moo Doo Kwan, and any other hard style.
So my advice to you, Ghost, would be to hone your Muay Thai strikes as tools that will be used toward a different end. Make your tools sharp and debilitating, but just because you have a sharp blade in your scabbard doesn't mean you can deliver the coup de grace in an instant. Many TMA-ists like karateka and muay thai boxers deliver strikes with incredible power. Some, but not most even have true KO power. But what's the point if you can't land it?
Mirko Filipovic probably had one of if not thee most powerful, fight ending roundhouse kicks in MMA and K-1. He did well too, but once people began realizing that a high caliber striker was a game changer just a much as the Gracie ground game, Crocop began having trouble winning because the opposition became cautious again. His one trick pony couldn't land like it once could and he began finding himself in long matches that began going the distance. The moral: If you can't land your ace then its useless.
If you rely on power when ass is on the line then you are asking for a world of hurt. Power shots only play a role once your opponent has already been softened up. Mix up a power shots in your barrage so he can't see it coming. Think of power shots as finishing touches.
And considering that SD situations aren't supposed to last more that 3-10 seconds(unless there's more than one opponent), the only methods that a boxer or a muay thai fighter could use to end it that fast is to throw their best power shots right away because a boxer/MT fighter only has three modes:
1)Either go for the KO
2)Look to wear a man down or
3)Look to create/wait for counter punch/kick opportunities.
Charlie Nelson truly gave the best example by illustrating this dynamic with the mongoose and the cobra. Your fangs(strikes) may have venom(power), but if you can't land your fangs then I don't have to worry about your venom while I work, and it won't be long before you go down hard and for the count.
Food for thought, Ghost.
I don't believe that its intelligent to use an art whose effectiveness is predicated on attributes instead of systematic attrition as a base or core art. Muay thai relies HEAVILY on conditioning of the shins and elbow(usually the ulna though). Muay Thai is a form of boxing, so it relies heavily on better than average conditioning. Muay thai, like boxing, also relies heavily on the speed of the delivery of mid ranged kicks and punches to get to the clinch.
I think the tools that MT uses are fantastic. They are very powerful. I just know that they can be better applied than from a boxing approach. Many SD systems use punches, but aren't actually teaching boxing. It's the same principle.
A good base/core is a system or set of skills that nearly anyone can do while staying in the precepts of SD. Jujitsu, kali, arnis, silat, arnis, WWII combatives are all systems that aren't rule based so that you can avoid developing bad habits like hesitation and pulling punches, but are all created in a manner where small people including women and teens can be effective. Once you get solid skills in one of those, make it nasty by adding in gouges, pokes, rips, nasty low-lined kicks and stomps, hair pulling, biting, etc.
I was reading through a review of a MA dvd and I feel that what the reviewer had to say is relevant here in this reply:
"I have seen former highly skilled "Masters" in various arts get older themselves, sustain injuries, and at times lose 80-90% of their former kicking skill, themselves getting to the point where their own kicks look like blue belts. Hey, lets face it, hard style arts will likely do that when it comes too kicking! Yet these same "Masters" will often continue saying to the world "I'm a TKD 8th Dan" yet can't kick anymore??? What does that 8th Dan now mean if their kicks look no better than a blue belts? Does it simply mean "I was good at one time, I can't kick anymore due to my knees, but let me teach you how to wear-out your knees too"? Ever heard the saying "stop the insanity"? What about a middle aged adult, or even older adult, who wants to begin martial arts late in life, or only wants to learn self-defense? Do you really think most stand a good chance of learning how to throw spectacular head-high kicks? Yet kicking arts often brainwash everyone, no matter what age, into believing "kicking head high is self-defense". I don't understand why these older "Masters" with blown-out-knees don't learn better for themselves."
The man who wrote that is a high ranking practitioner of TKD, but it applies to all kicking arts like TKD, Muay Thai, Shotokan, Kyokushin, Tang Soo Do, Moo Doo Kwan, and any other hard style.
So my advice to you, Ghost, would be to hone your Muay Thai strikes as tools that will be used toward a different end. Make your tools sharp and debilitating, but just because you have a sharp blade in your scabbard doesn't mean you can deliver the coup de grace in an instant. Many TMA-ists like karateka and muay thai boxers deliver strikes with incredible power. Some, but not most even have true KO power. But what's the point if you can't land it?
Mirko Filipovic probably had one of if not thee most powerful, fight ending roundhouse kicks in MMA and K-1. He did well too, but once people began realizing that a high caliber striker was a game changer just a much as the Gracie ground game, Crocop began having trouble winning because the opposition became cautious again. His one trick pony couldn't land like it once could and he began finding himself in long matches that began going the distance. The moral: If you can't land your ace then its useless.
If you rely on power when ass is on the line then you are asking for a world of hurt. Power shots only play a role once your opponent has already been softened up. Mix up a power shots in your barrage so he can't see it coming. Think of power shots as finishing touches.
And considering that SD situations aren't supposed to last more that 3-10 seconds(unless there's more than one opponent), the only methods that a boxer or a muay thai fighter could use to end it that fast is to throw their best power shots right away because a boxer/MT fighter only has three modes:
1)Either go for the KO
2)Look to wear a man down or
3)Look to create/wait for counter punch/kick opportunities.
Charlie Nelson truly gave the best example by illustrating this dynamic with the mongoose and the cobra. Your fangs(strikes) may have venom(power), but if you can't land your fangs then I don't have to worry about your venom while I work, and it won't be long before you go down hard and for the count.
Food for thought, Ghost.
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