injustices in american society

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I was talking about taking the coloured person when they are equal
equal opertunity is a myth anyway, even at age 35, I was age discriminated against others because they are women
If people would get equal oportunity there would be no need for positive discrimination
Don't get me wrong I'm by no means an advocate of it but I just understand that it has it's need in certain areas
Right now I work in an envieroment where there is no need at all because somehow it went by itself
Overhere highly schooled people are still hard to come by so most will get a job and therefore a lot of those "special projects"aren't there anymore

but when the jobmarket worsens this might all change again

Life is unfair, it asks for unfair meassures

What about disabled people, do you think they get the same chance as you do?

Stupid thing is every company bigger than I believe 40 employees has to haave a certain percentage of disabled people, guess who didn't make the target, government itself
But what do you expect they issue an ecotax on energy and leave the lights on in all their buildings( it can't even be switched off

There is your injustice government not doing themself wat they ask us to do

[Szczepankiewicz]

I was talking about taking the coloured person when they are equal

Yes, what you are talking about is government dictated and enforced discrimination.

"I will not hire you because you are black."

If I said that I would go out of business and probably punished in other realms.

"I will not hire you because you are white"

I'd get big fat government contracts and accolades from all manner of organizations.

In the first instance I'm a 'racist'

But in the second instance I'm a 'progressive humanitarian'.

But, I still made my hiring decision on skin color.

Either it is ok to make decisions on skin color or it is not.

Which is it?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Now I get the feeling you stopped reading after that sentence.
It is not but no-one will say
"I will not hire you because you are black."
instead you will be told you don't fit the profile or the other person fitted better in the team ( of all white people)

Positive Discrimination is like a drug that battles the symptoms of a disease, untill you have a cure for the disease it's better to use the drug
in the fine print of the drug is that if you don't have the disease the drug will make you sick

As soon as the disease is rooted out, you want to get rid of most of the drug because of it's potential to make people sick

And that's where things went wrong, people who dodn't need the drugs were forced to take it and got sick of it, like you have, Spanky

Doess this clear up my point of view a bit ( probably not)

[Lizard]

That was a very good way of putting it (using the drug as an example). Much better than my attempts at using monkeys to explain things.

But I believe that if you just leave things as they are (no positive discrimination) then eventualy people will be treated equaly.

Punishing the white people for the mistakes of their ancestors will just make them angry and keep racism alive. In my opinion the drug makes the illness worse.

Perhaps the drug should have been tested in a small, controled environment before being force fed to everyone?

[Szczepankiewicz]

Toody,

I didn't miss anything.

You're espousing the rhetoric that it's ok to determine someone's fate on something they cannot change. As long as you get to set the standards for that determiniation.

But my friend, what happens when someone who doesn't agree with your values gets to set the new standard for determination?

You are saying that non-white people deserve extra opportunites and extra help because of their skin color.

All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others?

Social Engineering of this nature has not, and will not work. No matter how good you're intentions are.

Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining...

Spanky

[Toudiyama[NL]]

shure things solve themself like the rich getting poorer and the poor getting richer all the time

If nobody would commit a crime there would be no need for police but that's a utopia it won't happen nor will discrimination evr be eradicated from society

If you can asure me that no manager will ever discriminate against women or colored people then I will asure you positive discrimination will stop

You want to stop giving a pain killer to someone with chronical pains even though we haven't found a cure for what is causing the pain, it saves a lot of money but isn't very nice is it?

I must say dispite the fact that I keep mentioning both colored people and women, you keep falling back to the colored people
why is that?

It will never be my set of values because I wasn't an advocate of it, I just understand the need, you do not have to convince me of the injustice of it but you try and come up with something to make shure that there won't be any discrimination in the future


next post I will agree with you because we are getting nowhere and not even fast

[Szczepankiewicz]

Nope, you shouldn't agree with me. That will actually weaken my position...


The reason I don't talk about anything but skin color is because, as I have stated, decisions made on unchangeable physical characteristics are wrong. Whether it be skin color, gender, hair color, eye color... take your pick...

AND I'm trying to stay focused on the topic at hand and not spin off into a tangent or three...

It is already against the law (and even added to the Constitution of the United States) that you cannot make decisions based on race.

Will descrimination ever disappear? Nope.
Will life ever be fair? Nope.
Will you make life in general better by instituting hypocritical government programs? Nope.

Can we prosecute people for violating the 14th Amendment? You bet your ass.

We need to make a rule and stick by it in all situations. Kinda like 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.

If I start qualifying that rule, then I can manipulate the situation to suit my interests.

And that is exactly what is happening with the so called 'Affirmative Action' and similar social engineering programs.

[Lizard]

My problems with positive discrimination are:

It is completely hypocritical (as skitzopangwilax said) for a government to say "Discrimination is really bad, don't do it. Discrimination against a person on the grounds of race or gender is possibly the worst form. By the way we're going to start discriminating against all white men..."

It could encourage even more racism. If I'm completely unracist and don't even notice skin color but then keep finding that poeple of a different race keep being given jobs just because the color of their skin is different to mine then it's going to make me angry and it's going to make me start taking notice of people's race (hey, that guy's black, he'll be given the job instead of me. Oh no wait he's gone, great now there's only white peole here, I'm in with a chance).

[Szczepankiewicz]

Yes!!!!!!!!!

Lizard is on my side. Yama, you don't stand a chance now!

[Toudiyama[NL]]

But that is what the drugs story also told, if you aren't sick you shouldn't be bothered with the medicine
Also do not forget that I do not have the faintest idea how positive discrimination is implimented in your coutries, only in mine, nor do I exactly know how the situalion was/is with discrimination overthere

our population is 10% import of which the most part is muslim, but because of the seperation of state and church, there hase never been and most probably never will be ( luckely) a positive discrimination for muslims

I think no government should put laws and rules into effect on how much coloured people should be employed if they themself do not have it yet, let them start first, this way they understand that it is BS most of the time, if most do a financial study, it's BS to think you should have a certain ratio in technique or iin the arts, it just won't happen nor will I find a lot of elder people who have an MCSE
That is of the same stupidity and injustice as telling 1000 they aren't considdered disabled anymore because they can still do one job of which on excist in the country already occupied by a guy in his 30's holding the job for 10 years already ( so job is virtually non-excistant)
See Spanky I told you we do agree on a certain level, I just see 256 shades of grey not just black and white ( no pun intended)

[Szczepankiewicz]

I can't compete on your level.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
I can't compete on your level.

Are you shure my level is so low you would trip over it

And I didn't know we were competing, I just tried to make my point of view clear
Another example of how I look at things: I'm an atheist, but do not think relegion is something that is wrong because a lot of people benefit from it

So I understand the need but would never become religious myself, does that make sense to you?

[Tom Yum]

Ok rules of the Spanky vs. Todiy bout.

To be held in a squash court at "Squash City" nearest the juice bar.

Ring (or court) girls must be pre moistened from one of the saunas, which I will be occupying.

Thai Bri is the announcer and may enter the court at any time with a fold out chair.

Falcon and Lizard can choose to be Mascot of ONE of the fighters and at any time, may engage in mortal combat with each other but with no reward.

There will be no penal-ty for me keeping the court girls occupied during the uh...length of the bout.

"Let's get ready to rumble!!!"

[Toudiyama[NL]]

But only if we make it a ladder and table match

[RingThing]

In the monkey example, sure cutting off the tails of the evil monkey's descendants would be unjust and senseless. But that's not the end of the question. What if, several generations after the Great Tail-Cutting, monkey society was still heavily stratified, with all the major simian economic and government institutions dominated by monkeys with tails who inherited, directly or indirectly, the power concentrated by their tailed ancestors?

Even if having a tail was no longer directly necessary for success, a tail-less monkey would likely have a lot of obstacles to overcome. No older relatives with good connections to guide them into a good career or help them get that first door-opening job. No parents from good universities to help get them in as legacies. No family money accumulated through generations of economic success. And all the while being confronted by a police force with a disproportionately high number of tailed monkeys who had trouble understanding of their perspective.

Maybe some form of economic-based discrimination would work in real life, like university admissions. Something that would acknowledge that a kid of any race from the ghetto who had good grades probably did a lot more to get there than a middle class kid with the same qualifications.