Cult activity as martial arts

[kevin green]

Alot of the martial arts have religous cult overtones. Most martial arts have their origins in religous cults. It keeps alot of people from practising martial arts and it has nothing to do with learning a sport or self defense method.
Organized judo is a prime example They want you to bow to the mat which is an inanimate object and they also have you bow to
a picture of Judo's founder Jiguro Kano (who is dead) which is a graven image plus bowing to the officials and your opponent.And they begin and end the contests with mass bowing ceromonies!

[Lizard]

Yes but a cult was once defined to me as a false religion. Since I am not a christian, christianity is, to me a false religion. Therefore christianity is a cult. Is worshipping a mat (which does exist) any more foolish than worshipping a god (who doesn't exist)?

[jules]

I think you are mistaking cultrual tradition for cultish activities.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Bowing to the founder and officials and your opponent is a sign of respect NOT submission
Bowing to Kano, with it we respect the work he has done
To the teacher, we repect that he is willing to teach us, to the opponent, with it we say that we will repect eachother

Don't make it more religious than it is
ven if they incorporate Shinto or budhist values, it doesn't mean anything because they do not conflict with christian values

I think this is something that came from some born again christians, it makes something religious out of something that wasn't meant to be and really isn't

To take Judo as the example for it is outright stupid because tradition doesn't say much to judoka appart from the bowing
If there is a Shinden (small temple) it is usually because there are other arts being taught

[kevin green]

misguided

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]
Bowing to the founder and officials and your opponent is a sign of respect NOT submission
Bowing to Kano, with it we respect the work he has done
To the teacher, we repect that he is willing to teach us, to the opponent, with it we say that we will repect eachother

Don't make it more religious than it is
ven if they incorporate Shinto or budhist values, it doesn't mean anything because they do not conflict with christian values

I think this is something that came from some born again christians, it makes something religious out of something that wasn't meant to be and really isn't

To take Judo as the example for it is outright stupid because tradition doesn't say much to judoka appart from the bowing
If there is a Shinden (small temple) it is usually because there are other arts being taught

Please look for my reply under" Judo bozos and suckups"
The supreme insult in oriental culture is to force someone to bow to you! These are some of the subtle mind control methods employed by the so called masters! Sitting on your legs ,no water or bathroom breaks ,painful techniques the kowtowing, calling them master.Group indoctrination ,group bowing ceromonies are all brainwashing techniques. About time Americans lead the way and stand up to this shit .once again!

[Tom Yum]

I practice a 1000 year old martial art called muay thai.

There's a pre-fight dance called the Wai Kru which pays respect to one's instructor. Some bowing is involved. In most Asian cultures, you respect those who dedicate themselves to your improvement, regardless of how rigorous the training is. In return for paying respect, you get some kind of guarantee that your instructor will share his knowledge and look after your progress.

It can be argued that in some Western cultures you pay lip service to your elders or creator on Sunday while living a life of lies, manipulation, greed, sin and deception Monday through Friday. I'm not putting Christianity down, but I'm telling it like it is.

Kevin, you might want to remove the stick from your own eye before you remove the stick from anothers

[William]

Now, if you want to read about some freakish cultish type of behavior, read this thread:

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?threadid=6612&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

A salute, a bow, or the putting the hands together buddha style are generally just signs of respect, nothing more. If your instructor wants you to pray, chant, burn incense with animal sacrifice, move on. If there is anything that is beyond a show of respect and/or martial training, than re-evaluate your situation.

I remember one instructor who would have us do the old put the hand over the fist salute to show respect and that we meant no hostile intentions (ie, peace). One guy came into watch the class and started going off when he saw the salute. He started gibbering that he wasn't going to Kow tow or worship this and that, he wasn't a pagan blah, blah, blah. Really, it just showed how insecure he was with himself and his own beliefs.


William

[lssanjose]

well put tom yum. very well put.

[jules]

The supreme insult in oriental culture is to force someone to bow to you!

Not when you bow back or the person is a) older or b) is in a higher social position than you (which sensais and judges are in that culture).

[Tom Yum]

Thanks Issanjose.

We need to distinguish practices of respect FROM cult activity.

1. Bowing in the form of greetings or pre-class ceremonies in Asian cultures are typically practiced from as far south as Cambodia to as far north as Korea. The purpose of such bowing is a show of respect and request of learning.

2. Titles sush as Kru, Sensei, Sifu, etc.. do NOT mean creator, God, overlord etc. They are simply titles like Mr or Mrs. which denote a practicioner who is capable of teaching and have a technical-heirarchial meaning.

ex Sifu = "teacher"," father"...not father as in Father of the Holy Spirit but rather someone whose abilities are at a teacher level and you respect as you do your own paternal father.

-------------------

Cult activity is a small, marginal problem in the martial arts. It happens when practicioners (who buy into the mysticism aspect) who obsessively follow the life practices and philosophy a martial arts instructor who is not of a world religion. (Christian, Buddhist, Confuscianism etc.) There are some groups that are probably borderline cult-like, but do not make false claims or do things against the law.

Cult activity becomes bad when the said instructor makes claims that are impossible in the world of modern physics or makes his students and instructors carry out illegal activities.

I can't believe I've had to spell this out for you Kevin Green and that a man like yourself is not intellectually capable of making this distinction. Why is it that Christians whom are comfortable with themselves and their beliefs understand these differences?

Are you part of a cult ?

[kevin green]

leaders and followers

Some people like to be led around by the nose. You have that right in america. If you want to wear blinders and accept some egotistical meglomaniacs version of reality thats up to you. But don't you think that it would open up participation in an organized sport like Judo if you didn't try to force your spiritual beleifs down eveybody else's throats? Its supposed to be a sport where people get together and interact with the idea that the sharing of beleifs and ideas is good for society.

You guys need to step back and ask why you feel threatened by something as insignificant and minute as having bowing voluntary
Bowing has nothing to do with skill acquisition. It may in fact inhibit the learning of correct skill and especially skill improvment
by the acceptance of the same old tired teaching methods. Thats the classical rut they use to maintain the status quo I.E. having you sign their contracts and spend your money at their schools.

Its like the schools whose secret techniques are so deadly that their students can't dare go to contests. Just bullshit

[BB Wolf]

Bowing, in Asian culture, is not that disimiliar to the salute used in the Armed Services, or putting your hand over your heart during the National Anthem, etc. A sign of respect, an ackowlegement of rank, no more. I realize that there are certain sects of Christianity, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, that will not salute the flag because they consider it "worshiping a graven image". However, bowing has become an accepted convention of showing respect in martial arts studios almost everywhere, from traditional dojos to even some modern combatives schools. And besides, In every school I've ever been in, the instructor also bows back. I don't really see how this can be conveyed as worship.

[kevin green]

bowing

Originally posted by BB Wolf
Bowing, in Asian culture, is not that disimiliar to the salute used in the Armed Services, or putting your hand over your heart during the National Anthem, etc. A sign of respect, an ackowlegement of rank, no more. I realize that there are certain sects of Christianity, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, that will not salute the flag because they consider it "worshiping a graven image". However, bowing has become an accepted convention of showing respect in martial arts studios almost everywhere, from traditional dojos to even some modern combatives schools. And besides, In every school I've ever been in, the instructor also bows back. I don't really see how this can be conveyed as worship.

Is Texas part of asian culture?

[BB Wolf]

Originally posted by Lizard
Yes but a cult was once defined to me as a false religion. Since I am not a christian, christianity is, to me a false religion. Therefore christianity is a cult. Is worshipping a mat (which does exist) any more foolish than worshipping a god (who doesn't exist)?

A cult, in its strictest sense, is simply a religion that does not have many followers. Christianity was once considered a "Jewish cult" by the Romans. (I'm not sure how many members you have to have to graduate from cult to religion ).
In this day and age, with images of Jonestown and Waco, and what not, cult has taken on a lot of baggage in its connotation.

[Kingston]

what is a cult?

BB wolf your definition of cult is a little off.

The concise Oxford Dictionary Ninth editions definition of "cult" is:

1. a system of religious worship esp. as as expressed in ritual.

2. A) devotion or homage to a person or thing (the cult of aestheticism). B) a popular fashion esp. followed by a specific section of society.

3. (attrib) denoting a person or thing popularized in this way (cult film; cult figure).

basicaly a cult is worshiping a certain person or thing.

When most people refer to cults, they are talking about a (usualy small) group of people who follow a singer living leader and the docterines that the leader puts out. Most cults have a "guru" or central figure of some kind. Most cases "brain washing" techniques are used. The Guru has strict and total controle over his followers. The followers usualy live in a tight comunity with little contact with the outside world.

That is what is typicaly known as a cult, and what "cult like" behaviour incorporates.

Why is it that so many people can practice martial arts, be convinced totaly that they are learning valuable skills that could save there butts. Only to get there ass kicked, and then go into denial, or have it shatter there beleifs of what is real in martial arts.

Why is there such a lack of common sence in martial arts?

belts, bowing, titles, manditory respect. what do these things have to do with fighting?

the martial art i study is highly influenced by christianity (i would say i have christian beliefs, but i do not follow the religion)

There is no bowing, belts, ranks, or uniforms. Respect is given by being friendly, helping your partner, and generaly being respectfull the way you want to. I respect my parents, i do not bow to them. I repect my MA teacher very much, but i think i would find it very strange if after every practice i would have to line up to him, kneel and bow properly while saying the exact phrase everytime in russian that means "thank you very much respected teacher" or something like that.

NOW dont get me wrong, i took Kendo and Iaido for a couple years. Those arts probably display a typical "cult" like enviroment.

I really injoyed it. I had no problem showing my teacher respect in the same way he showed HIS teacher respect and so on and so forth. I enjoyed it for the workout, competition, as well as the cultural aspects of it. It seemed to give me a look into another culture (lol i took classes at the Japanese Canadian Cultural center) Everyone was friendly, it was a family enviroment, people of all ages getting along.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY non of that bowing stuff, exagerated thank you's or titles besides "sir" came out of the dojo......

If i saw my kendo instructor outside of practice, i would show him the same respect as any other adult.

For it to be "cult like practices" I would think that these types of rituals would leak over outside of the dojo would it not?

hell, one sensai we even called by his first name.....(he was new, and tough) the only reason for this was he didn't want people to bow to him....

sensai's played with students in local hockey leagues....went out for drinks, but in the dojo, the cerimonies and respect remained the "japanese way"

There is nothing wrong with that.

Now some places portray a kind of "false" culture, white guys who know nothing about japan or japanese culture having people call them master or whatever......this is all part of the mighty "mcdojo" in my opinion.

For the most part, If you dont like it, dont take it. Take something else. There are cases of true cultism in martial arts....but i dont think it pretains to Judo, or TKD or any other large martial art organization.

If you think martial arts, in general, are cults then you are either insecure with your own religious beliefs, or you are some kind of religious extremist. (lol of course those aren't the only two options, but in trying to make a point )