Force Recon, PNP SAF.... knife video.

[BoarSpear]

...........................

[Tom Yum]

Nice!

That sequence with the Force Recon multiple-drill reminded me of that Chinese knife camp that you posted a while back. Except the Chinese guys were a bit more....uhhh.....excited

[BoarSpear]

Nice!

That sequence with the Force Recon multiple-drill reminded me of that Chinese knife camp that you posted a while back. Except the Chinese guys were a bit more....uhhh.....excited

Amazing what adding a little neurolinguistics to the training regimen will achieve.

[kingoftheforest]

Very nice. Looks kinda familar for some reason....

[darrianation]

Once agian we see our troops being force fed shit when it comes to combatives. Yes, some of that stuff was good but a lot of it was higgy-jiggi-touchy-feely and would only work at those slow speeds and, or, against a cooperative opponent.

The higgy-jiggi-touchy-feely shit will completely spin out of control at street speed and against a fully resisting oipponent. I am not sure why the Military puts up with such sub par shit. The civilian sector gets much better. I guess it's politics.

I remeber when I was in the Mil' they tried to force feed us SCARS and other crap like that and kungfoolery type non-sense shit. There still doing it.

[BoarSpear]

Once agian we see our troops being force fed shit when it comes to combatives. Yes, some of that stuff was good but a lot of it was higgy-jiggi-touchy-feely and would only work at those slow speeds and, or, against a cooperative opponent.

The higgy-jiggi-touchy-feely shit will completely spin out of control at street speed and against a fully resisting oipponent. I am not sure why the Military puts up with such sub par shit. The civilian sector gets much better. I guess it's politics.

I remeber when I was in the Mil' they tried to force feed us SCARS and other crap like that and kungfoolery type non-sense shit. There still doing it.

I'd really enjoy seeing you whip a couple of those force recon instructors in ANY fight, much less an edged confrontation...I really wanna see you "create space and draw your firearm" on one of them I'm sure your MMA base or the suplex you love will serve you just fine ....youre clearly out of your element on blade work Mr "convulsive grip" Stick to your guns.

[darrianation]

I'd really enjoy seeing you whip a couple of those force recon instructors in ANY fight, much less an edged confrontation...I really wanna see you "create space and draw your firearm" on one of them I'm sure your MMA base or the suplex you love will serve you just fine ....youre clearly out of your element on blade work Mr "convulsive grip" Stick to your guns.

My post was nothing personal against you.

As a former military person I am tired of some of the most worthless crap (when it comes to HTH training and combatives) heaped on our men in uniform. I went through SCARS and LINE and what a waste of time…WWII combatives beats the pants of both. And it is all because of politics and infighting, and the spotlight (everyone wants the recognition).

My point of view comes from 27 years of MA experience and over that time frame I have played and trained (seriously) with this stuff (knife) a lot.

I have tried this stuff that you are seeing on this and many other videos and found that it is complete crap. I have been through hundreds of simulations using chalked knives, metal trainers, wooden knives, sims, airsoft, and empty hands, knife vs. knife, knife vs. stick, knife vs. gun, knife vs. multiples, knife vs. empty hand…and whatever.

I have put folks through hundreds of these types of full-out unscripted (untagged) drills, and I have seen hundreds more done. I have seen knife fights in the real world and I have faced edged weapons both on and off the job (military- desert storm- and professional protection services in the Middle East, in the Balkans, Asia, Africa, and in the US with over 20 years experience). I have seen hundreds of knife wounds (the after math) working as a paramedic in Baltimore MD, Washington DC, and Denver CO.

We have had experienced folks from the FMAs, TMAs, the military, etc, who have come to our group and have tried to espouse their staged drills with their arrogant attitudes. We put them in the meat grinder (our pressure cooker drills) and their shit exploded in their faces every time.

They show us their staged drill then they would speed it up of course with same attack, same progression, and same outcome. Then we put our guy on them who wasn’t cooperating and their progression certainly did not go as planned. It changed real quickly from pure artsy-fartsy robotic precision to something very ugly in a fraction of a heart beat. Ugly is fine if it works but theirs didn’t. It became immediately obvious these folks were not used to the unscripted drills that we were used to doing and the kind you see in the real world.

The method of knife fighting I prescribe to (as you referred too) is an incorporated subsystem to my overall fighting matrix, simple, direct and to the point.

This method has been repeatedly filtered and stripped down using unscripted un-ritualized simulations and drills against competent, capable, strong, and aggressive opponents who are fully resisting in such away that it provides incentives and transparency that forced the maxima to the surface and unveiled the deficiencies. In the end this method has come about through this type of training coupled with my real world experiences as well as those whom I have trained this stuff with who have far more real world experience than most folks will ever see in their lifetimes. This is what I have found through all the above to be the most robust method with the most consistency and with highest level of repeatability. It my be ugly but it works (not perfect but consistent and repeatable)...Period!

[BoarSpear]

My post was nothing personal against you.

As a former military person I am tired of some of the most worthless crap (when it comes to HTH training and combatives) heaped on our men in uniform. I went through SCARS and LINE and what a waste of time…WWII combatives beats the pants of both. And it is all because of politics and infighting, and the spotlight (everyone wants the recognition).

My point of view comes from 27 years of MA experience and over that time frame I have played and trained (seriously) with this stuff (knife) a lot.

I have tried this stuff that you are seeing on this and many other videos and found that it is complete crap. I have been through hundreds of simulations using chalked knives, metal trainers, wooden knives, sims, airsoft, and empty hands, knife vs. knife, knife vs. stick, knife vs. gun, knife vs. multiples, knife vs. empty hand…and whatever.

I have put folks through hundreds of these types of full-out unscripted (untagged) drills, and I have seen hundreds more done. I have seen knife fights in the real world and I have faced edged weapons both on and off the job (military- desert storm- and professional protection services in the Middle East, in the Balkans, Asia, Africa, and in the US with over 20 years experience). I have seen hundreds of knife wounds (the after math) working as a paramedic in Baltimore MD, Washington DC, and Denver CO.

We have had experienced folks from the FMAs, TMAs, the military, etc, who have come to our group and have tried to espouse their staged drills with their arrogant attitudes. We put them in the meat grinder (our pressure cooker drills) and their shit exploded in their faces every time.

They show us their staged drill then they would speed it up of course with same attack, same progression, and same outcome. Then we put our guy on them who wasn’t cooperating and their progression certainly did not go as planned. It changed real quickly from pure artsy-fartsy robotic precision to something very ugly in a fraction of a heart beat. Ugly is fine if it works but theirs didn’t. It became immediately obvious these folks were not used to the unscripted drills that we were used to doing and the kind you see in the real world.

The method of knife fighting I prescribe to (as you referred too) is a filtered stripped down method using unscripted un-ritualized simulations and drills against competent, capable, strong, and aggressive opponents who are fully resisting in such away that it provides incentives and transparency that forced the maxima to the surface and unveiled the deficiencies. In the end this method has come about though this type of training coupled with my real world experiences as well as those whom I have trained this stuff with who have far more real world experience than most folks will ever see in their lifetimes. This is what I have found through all the above to be the most robust method with the most consistency and with highest level of repeatability. Period

I didnt offend me, it just pisses me off when you suggest "creating space" and convulsive grips, then say civilians get better training than the military
ANY idiot will tell you the hammer grip and convulsive grip are the grip of an amatuer NOT ONE SINGLE RESPECTED EDGED WEAPON INSTRUCTOR ADVOCATES THE CONVULSIVE GRIP I come from a family of H2H military instructors with a history of service since the early 1900's, I too have survived edged weapon assaults..one of which I was naked and outnumbered 2 to one they both had knives... I had a toothbrush Exactly that type training allowed me to survive that encounter....just because you didnt put the work in to use something other than an amatuers grip doesnt mean no one else can...

To quote James Keating (again) "Don't judge the whole world by your own shitty standards"

As for your unscripted drills...youre saying you just attack each other with convulsive grips randomly and that defeats a well seasoned FMA or Military combatives instructor?

[darrianation]

As for your unscripted drills...youre saying you just attack each other with convulsive grips randomly and that defeats a well seasoned FMA or Military combatives instructor?

I am not saying everything in modern military combatives is crap. I am not saying everything I saw on the video is crap. But I am saying the majority of what I saw on that particular video is crap.

I have trained in the FMAs and I have learned all the grips. I have served with Army Rangers and trained with police tactical trainers who had 20 years experience in the FMAs who were the first to admit that in the shit hits the fan event they don’t care about the grip, they are squeezing as tightly as those little muscles will squeeze. I am sure not everyone has that problem but I am sure that the majority of those folks who don’t, probably haven’t been it for real.

And in fact it isn’t a problem (convulsive grip) it is what it is. There are definitely better grips for training and fighting but what really happens in a fight isn’t always the same thing. All I am saying is I take my grip (what happens anyway) from the fight and not the other way around because that is what’s natural and I think if something comes natural and it serves its intended purpose than don’t change a thing. The kind of stuff that makes those so-called knife masters strut of mumbling about us infidels.

Our unscripted drills took on many shapes, sizes, and forms from every angle and multiple environments from low light, confined space, open fields, bathrooms, hallways, inside cars, bus isles, front rooms, bedrooms, office spaces, etc, utilizing sudden onset fighting to more complex scenarios. We had 1 on 1, 1 on 2, 1 on 3, 2 on 2, 2 on 3, and etc. We had folks attacked from a disadvantaged position, from equal or proportional positions, and from advantaged positions, etc. And with knive sheathed, knives concealed, and knives in hand, etc.

A lot stuff like the hooking and grabbing the limbs (upper and lower), spinning and redirection (except in the case of parries) and spinning around behind the guy and laying on the floor and tripping him to the ground and spinning again and contorting to get some form of limb lock with your legs and etc. Is cool to watch but it doesn’t work when the other guy is coming at you with full afterburners on or like a rabid wolverine and steroids with the full intent to kill you.

These drills are very much like the flow drills you see in many FMA classes that work great at slow speed or with a willing partner but when you fight (knife tudo) what you end up doing is something very different especially if the other guy is a capable opponent who is aggressively coming after you.

I am sorry if folks want to believe otherwise but many times even inferior fragile techniques not only refuse to die but, in fact, garner a stubborn, self-righteous following among the uninformed and unsophisticated?

[Tom Yum]

A lil inter service discussion goin' on...

All the grips: fencers, hammer, inverted seem usefull for different purposes. I'm not a blade expert, so I'm just gonna sit back, zip it and see what yall have to say.

[BoarSpear]

I am not saying everything in modern military combatives is crap. I am not saying everything I saw on the video is crap. But I am saying the majority of what I saw on that particular video is crap.

I have trained in the FMAs and I have learned all the grips. I have served with Army Rangers and trained with police tactical trainers who had 20 years experience in the FMAs who were the first to admit that in the shit hits the fan event they don’t care about the grip, they are squeezing as tightly as those little muscles will squeeze. I am sure not everyone has that problem but I am sure that the majority of those folks who don’t, probably haven’t been it for real.

And in fact it isn’t a problem (convulsive grip) it is what it is. There are definitely better grips for training and fighting but what really happens in a fight isn’t always the same thing. All I am saying is I take my grip (what happens anyway) from the fight and not the other way around because that is what’s natural and I think if something comes natural and it serves its intended purpose than don’t change a thing. The kind of stuff that makes those so-called knife masters strut of mumbling about us infidels.

Our unscripted drills took on many shapes, sizes, and forms from every angle and multiple environments from low light, confined space, open fields, bathrooms, hallways, inside cars, bus isles, front rooms, bedrooms, office spaces, etc, utilizing sudden onset fighting to more complex scenarios. We had 1 on 1, 1 on 2, 1 on 3, 2 on 2, 2 on 3, and etc. We had folks attacked from a disadvantaged position, from equal or proportional positions, and from advantaged positions, etc. And with knive sheathed, knives concealed, and knives in hand, etc.

A lot stuff like the hooking and grabbing the limbs (upper and lower), spinning and redirection (except in the case of parries) and spinning around behind the guy and laying on the floor and tripping him to the ground and spinning again and contorting to get some form of limb lock with your legs and etc. Is cool to watch but it doesn’t work when the other guy is coming at you with full afterburners on or like a rabid wolverine and steroids with the full intent to kill you.

These drills are very much like the flow drills you see in many FMA classes that work great at slow speed or with a willing partner but when you fight (knife tudo) what you end up doing is something very different especially if the other guy is a capable opponent who is aggressively coming after you.

I am sorry if folks want to believe otherwise but many times even inferior fragile techniques not only refuse to die but, in fact, garner a stubborn, self-righteous following among the uninformed and unsophisticated?

The locks you're referring to are part of the NEW MMA addition to the military combatives Thats the very crap YOU advocated in an earlier post for preparation for the military I do believe. Note all the early stick and move attacks that was fairly realistic. Granted there was some namby pamby grab and control the guy shit they teach now, buts the very shit you advocated and was added by people with an MMA background.

you might note I've screamed about that shit since i've been here, WW2 combatives are so far superior to current military combatives its sickening. And its also true that for the masses a however you grab your knife death grip might work fine...just realize that only allows attack lines like the slow assed drills we all started training against...a death grip slows you down and greatly limits mobility...a knife doesnt have to be muscle fucked through the fight, its sharp and does damage with contact...send me a steriod nut charging in "chucky style" and well have a BBQ.

[knifethrower]

I'm just gonna sit back, zip it and see what yall have to say.

Me too





nice vid Boar........thanks

[BoarSpear]

Me too





nice vid Boar........thanks

ehh apparently you would do better watching Chucky and Michael Myers show you how its really done...

[darrianation]

BoarSpear:The locks you're referring to are part of the NEW MMA addition to the military combatives Thats the very crap YOU advocated in an earlier post for preparation for the military I do believe. Note all the early stick and move attacks that was fairly realistic. Granted there was some namby pamby grab and control the guy shit they teach now, buts the very shit you advocated and was added by people with an MMA background.

Hmmmm…I don’t know what you are talking about. I don’t ever recall ever advocating locks or posting about “preparation for the military”. If I did it must have been in some other context.

you might note I've screamed about that shit since i've been here, WW2 combatives are so far superior to current military combatives its sickening.

We are in agreement here.

And its also true that for the masses a however you grab your knife death grip might work fine...just realize that only allows attack lines like the slow assed drills we all started training against...a death grip slows you down and greatly limits mobility. a knife doesnt have to be muscle fucked throught the fight, its sharp and does damage with contact...

There is some truth to this. But rather it is knife fighting, gunfighting, fighting is fighting…learn to work with, not against you instincts.

send me a steriod nut charging in "chucky style" and well have a BBQ.

You are right, if he is an untrained incompetent and incapable opponent and he bull rushes you, you may very well have a BBQ. But I think we shouldn’t be training for that type of opponent, although, we may very well get him, but we also may very well get the other guy who is a capable and competent opponent who won’t be so easy filleted. I think that’s who we should be training for. If you can beat him the incompetent retard will be a cake walk.

That’s why when we decided to work on this stuff we got the two of the meanest most aggressive guys we could find. One was a former division 1 college wrestler who had worked for such groups as Black Water before coming to us. The other was a former Navy SEAL who had extensive training in Muay Thai and Gracie jujitsu (black belt). Both of these guys looked quite similar to Bas Ruttan, very intimating, and every bit as mean, these guys had that “X factor vibe” if you know what I mean.

These were the guys we picked to be our bad guys. These were the guys we fought day in and day out. We put a trainer in their hands and told them to come at us with all you got…and they did.

We all had “knife” experience either in the FMAs, tactical knife courses, or other MA (or all three). But we got killed over and over and over again. We studied video tape of ourselves, practiced “many hours” over and over again, we used chalked or marker knives, etc, etc…and in the end we got better because we were forced to get better.

We begun to see a pattern in our small successes and began to look deeper and dig deeper until we started having more and more successful outcomes using certain straightforward tactics and strategies.

Just so we would now if it was truly our tactics that were getting better or was it simply we were getting better against our attackers attacks (gaming), we brought in other folks who were just as mean and aggressive if not more so. Again we saw some modicum of success. These successes improved over the next couple of months. Then we took the tactics and tested them against several different types of attacks and put then into several different types of drills and scenarios ranging in complexity. What we discovered was something very ugly and not nearly as precise or slick as the staged drills you saw on the video or in FMA class but they worked and gave us repeatable results across a wide spectrum of drills, scenarios, and complexity…although they were never perfect.

What we found is that more things didn’t work than worked. A lot of our prior training, experiences, assumption, and perceptions were blown out of the water and were revealed to be deficient. We did this stuff with firearms too.

What I personally learned, is that there are a lot of stuff that is very popular that in realty is paper thin. I would rather run (move off line laterally) to cover while accessing my gun or pick up an object, a stick, stool, or chair, perhaps before I took him on unarmed. My knife is for those times I find myself without my gun or I find myself in a position where I cannot get to my gun and then the knife can cut my way to my gun. Otherwise, the knife is used just like any fight in the bad breath range…immediately dominate by the most efficient and direct method possible and aggress through the opponent with as much aggression and brutal intent as possible and save the fancy stuff for impressing the impressionable kids in the gym.

The bottom line, when faced with an opponent who exudes a willingness to do violence and not just willingness…but has experience in violence he will be a formidable opponent do have to deal with and win, die, or survive there won’t be any BBQ. And many of the things folks thought would work because they worked in training or some guy said he used it in a fight simply won’t work.

[BoarSpear]

Hmmmm…I don’t know what you are talking about. I don’t ever recall ever advocating locks or posting about “preparation for the military”. If I did it must have been in some other context.


We are in agreement here.


There is some truth to this. But rather it is knife fighting, gunfighting, fighting is fighting…learn to work with, not against you instincts.


You are right, if he is an untrained incompetent and incapable opponent and he bull rushes you, you may very well have a BBQ. But I think we shouldn’t be training for that type of opponent, although, we may very well get him, but we also may very well get the other guy who is a capable and competent opponent who won’t be so easy filleted. I think that’s who we should be training for. If you can beat him the incompetent retard will be a cake walk.

That’s why when we decided to work on this stuff we got the two of the meanest most aggressive guys we could find. One was a former division 1 college wrestler who had worked for such groups as Black Water before coming to us. The other was a former Navy SEAL who had extensive training in Muay Thai and Gracie jujitsu (black belt). Both of these guys looked quite similar to Bas Ruttan, very intimating, and every bit as mean, these guys had that “X factor vibe” if you know what I mean.

These were the guys we picked to be our bad guys. These were the guys we fought day in and day out. We put a trainer in their hands and told them to come at us with all you got…and they did.

We all had “knife” experience either in the FMAs, tactical knife courses, or other MA (or all three). But we got killed over and over and over again. We studied video tape of ourselves, practiced “many hours” over and over again, we used chalked or marker knives, etc, etc…and in the end we got better because we were forced to get better.

We begun to see a pattern in our small successes and began to look deeper and dig deeper until we started having more and more successful outcomes using certain straightforward tactics and strategies.

Just so we would now if it was truly our tactics that were getting better or was it simply we were getting better against our attackers attacks (gaming), we brought in other folks who were just as mean and aggressive if not more so. Again we saw some modicum of success. These successes improved over the next couple of months. Then we took the tactics and tested them against several different types of attacks and put then into several different types of drills and scenarios ranging in complexity. What we discovered was something very ugly and not nearly as precise or slick as the staged drills you saw on the video or in FMA class but they worked and gave us repeatable results across a wide spectrum of drills, scenarios, and complexity…although they were never perfect.

What we found is that more things didn’t work than worked. A lot of our prior training, experiences, assumption, and perceptions were blown out of the water and were revealed to be deficient. We did this stuff with firearms too.

What I personally learned, is that there are a lot of stuff that is very popular that in realty is paper thin. I would rather run (move off line laterally) to cover while accessing my gun or pick up an object, a stick, stool, or chair, perhaps before I took him on unarmed. My knife is for those times I find myself without my gun or I find myself in a position where I cannot get to my gun and then the knife can cut my way to my gun. Otherwise, the knife is used just like any fight in the bad breath range…immediately dominate by the most efficient and direct method possible and aggress through the opponent with as much aggression and brutal intent as possible and save the fancy stuff for impressing the impressionable kids in the gym.

The bottom line, when faced with an opponent who exudes a willingness to do violence and not just willingness…but has experience in violence he will be a formidable opponent do have to deal with and win, die, or survive there won’t be any BBQ. And many of the things folks thought would work because they worked in training or some guy said he used it in a fight simply won’t work.

I'm not the one advocating chucky grips and attacks, you are, we DONT train for idiots, we train for agressive TRAINED opponents. the stuff about an agressive attacker is OLD NEWS to anyone outside of sports fighting bud. The secret service informed the president LOOOONG ago if the attacker was willing to die to bite his nose off then the president would lose his nose thats why I stress and teach intent and mindsed. Fighting aint a freakin game No shit when the big stereotyped goon attacked you it was intense So exactly what were you doing that allowed a big wrestler to attack you when you had your knife out and between you anyway? Thats the scenario shown on the tape you were dissing...if your blade is between you and the big wrestler and you lost, you were doing some dumb shit, glad you figured that out, perhaps a less tight grip on the knife might allow you to be reactive enough to let him stab himself on the bum rush ...you do understand sidestepping a rush right?