Mike vs Mike (debate)

[SamuraiGuy]

(My names Mike btw, and your getting owned Mike, not watch as I step up to the Mic, and molest you with unarguable logic).

(I'd also like to state right now, I have a very busy weekend ahead of me, and its Friday morning, so I dont know how often I will be able to reply, I will reply though, dont worry.)

I will be arguing that Americans should intervene or that Americans need to intervene for the situation to be resolved.

Israel and Palestine are currently at each others throats, and I believe Israel is working hard for a peace agreement or a cease fire. With the 2 hostages palestine has taken it will be difficult for this cease fire to come about. Intervention from the United States could aid return of the hostages, and therefore peace talks. Whether this aim came from military action (United States going in and rescuing hostages) or just the threat of war with United States, is irrelevent. Pressure from the U.S. would hasten the return of the hostages and hasten peace talks.

Israel is also quite concerned with the arsenal palestine has amassed. I belive its Katyusha (sp?) rockets they are amassing along with other missiles. And not only that they have started to use these missiles and rockets already. These missiles are manufactured in Iran if I'm not mistaken and this leads to problems. Iran is currently leaning towards Radical Islamist terroristic ideas, and buying weapons they produce, and using weapons they produce on other Middle Eastern Countries, poses a problem not only for Israel and the Lebanese, but every country in the Middle East, will Iran's agenda prevail?

The main conflict is stemming from the terrorist Hezbollah. Only with help from the U.S. (or the west for that matter) can this terrorist group be stopped before they cause any more destruction, take any more lives, or create more chaos in the middle east. The military might of the U.S is needed to stop these terrorist groups from attacking Israel and peaceful middle easter nations. The Hezzbollah uses their terrorism, their terror, the fear they cause as a weapon (along with rockets to back it up). They understand this fear, and unless they are out of their mind, should fear the united states. The presence of the united states will make them think twice about attacking another peaceful group knowing full well they wont be the biggest dog in the yard anymore.

It's also vital to the other Middle Eastern countries, as blows to terrorist organizations such as Hezzbollah, are blows to Iraqi insurgents and others who would wreak havoc in the middle east. They will realize that this wont be tolerated by the peaceful middle easterns, or the United States. (The west?). And they will realize more than ever, there is consequences for their actions, and that the United States will take a stand against Iraqi insurgents, or if need be Hezbollah or Iran.

One of the few Middle Eastern Countires with the power to stop the Hezzbollah is Syria, as they are providing the armanents being used for the attacks. This isnt in the Syrian interests though, as they support many many terrorist groups, and anyone who supports and aids terrorists might as well be a terrorist. The Syrians can stop the conflict, but they dont want it to end, the conflict needs to be resolved and the U.S. (west) are needed to do it.

And thats it for now.

[SamuraiGuy]

There is a reason military involvement would change the mind of the Hezzbollah, even if it hasnt in the past. Sure the U.S sold Israel planes/bombs/etc... but that doesnt mean Israel has enough of them, has the knowledge, tactics, and skill to use them like the Americans do. Sure sending in American troops hasnt done much in the past, because they havent sent in enough, a more stoic stance, where the Americans refuse to leave when they get bombed, and go in there with the attitude that they ARE going to get Hezzbollah. In your statement your saying Israeli military isnt doing any good, so how could American military. Do you really think they are equal, in power and reputation. So what if Hezzbollah blew up a barracks 20 years ago, it doesnt mean they think they can withstand American assault. Heck Canada burned down the WHITEHOUSE (hows that for a confidence builder), do you think we want to get into a military battle with the States. Do you think anyone wants to get into a War with the united states. I doubt it.

My mistake on the Katyusha's, I meant to say they were bought in Iran, not manufactured, still a technicality though. And it doesnt change my point. (there is a point in there). First of all the Hezbollah being backed by Iran gives it more military power than before, therefore bringing the United States in, is one of the only ways you can match this power. Israel cannot deal with an Iranian backed Hezzbollah.

As I stated before when defending my first point, the American army is not the same as the Israeli army. (Krav Maga anyone? lol). More guns, more rockets, more planes, better tactics (this is an assumption, but I think its a fairly safe one), better soldiers, etc. They may have the same things but they dont use them like the U.S. would... if you give Mike_Brewer an assault rifle, and give SamuraiGuy an assault rifle... and tell them to fight it out (Brewer being America in this example, SamuraiGuy being Israel), I'm gonna get slaughtered before I even figure out which end the bullets come out of (thats an exxagerration, but kinda close, I'd be fucked after that little bit).

Same weapons doesnt mean same army.

Now to adress your points.

If your saying the U.S will come out of this situation stronger military wise then I agree with you. Assault on another front would stretch the military, but are we looking at this topic as "Is it profitable for the united states to intervene in this crisis" or are we looking at is "Is it neccessary for the united states to intervene to resolve the situation" I'm not looking at the best way to profit America, I'm looking to profit, the world, the middle east. America like it or not has made themselves the champions of the war on terror, therefore when a terrorrist group is attacking another nation, they should feel compelled to act. "We are going into afghanistan to stop the terrorists, we are going into Iraq to stop the terrorrists... but the Hezbollah... well we are kinda busy, so they can do what they want".

And you say that if Iran tries to make peace, then peace will come in the Middle East, a peace far longer than any an American army could provide. The problem with this, is this will be like, all the peace deals, all the cease fires, the peace agreement will not hold up, it simply wont. Whether or not an American laid peace will hold up is yet to be seen, but as history teaches us, they always find a reason to start wars, blow each other up, and claim "their" territory. Another faulty peace agreement is not what the middle east needs.

You also said Iran woould come out smelling like roses, and gain favor in the international community, and this is why you think they would want to make peace. Why would you want to give Iran an opportunity to become more powerful? That seems detrimental to the good of the western world.

In your last point, you say "if a lasting peace can be brokered" well thats just not going to happen, history shows us that the fighting wont stop, the fighting will continue, someone will go over the border, someone will be taken hostage, and cities will be bombed. The need for intervention is there.

And while it may seem like arrogance, sending in troops our way, may be the only way to get peace, they havent been able to create it for themselves.

[SamuraiGuy]

See my PM as a reply to your above post.

You'll notice this is the first thing I'ved posted in 5 days I would imagine.

Edit; Bear with me here. Or wait, I'll go along with your logic... Everyone Mike_Brewer lost the debate when he refused to participate, weeks or months ago, he said he'd create a topic, but he didnt, he hid until I called him out on it, he said he was "sick".


Now doesnt that sound dumb. Thats my point. Dont get your panties in a bunch.

[SamuraiGuy]

Hey, I'll stop keeping you waiting.

Sorry but I'm far too busy to do this.. I have exactly 3 minutes until I go to another Judo class... 2012 it will pay off hopefully.

So I'm hereby admitting pure and utter defeat to Brewer, whether by default, or logic. Whichever he wants. I think it was pretty obvious he was going to win, but that was never the point.

I just don't have the time right now to actually research and think about this, and if I can't do something right, what point in doing it is there.

[SamuraiGuy]

Eh, lets just hope its not the same topic if we ever do come back to it.

Plus, I picked my side for that very reason haha.

[SamuraiGuy]

If you find the time, let me know what your arguments for my side would have been. You mentioned thats the side you actually support, so I'm interested in hearing them.

As for arguing on your side... I've got nothing, except probably what you posted reworded... lol.