chillen in somalia 06

[EmptyneSs]

have any of you guys been paying attention to whats been happening in somalia? the usa funded a bunch of warlords in somalia to fight muslim militants over there. this backfired, and only resulted in the muslim militia getting pissed off and taking over the entire country by force.

whats worse is i just read this interesting article today about how the somali islamic militants officially opened a nice training camp in somalia, with fighters and trainers from all over the middle east attending. http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles...990005?cid=774

lol, they got their own fucking country now, with terrorists from all over pouring into somalia to perfect their craft and the usa is partly responsible for it. our policies do nothing but fuel terrorism.

[traveller]

This is not really news. It has been going on since before we first entered Somalia to support UN Aid efforts.
100s of thousands of Somali Muslims have left Somalia for protection in the US and other countries. They are running from other Muslims -- Islamist militants to be exact. Muslims killing muslims for power. Not religious beliefs, not anti-westernism. These Islamist Militants were once all warlords themselves or part of a warlord camp.
Training camps are not new either. Militant training has been happening in Somalia for 20 years or more.
The militaries of surrounding countries have had a huge impact on this militantism as well. Islamic militant leaders have been able to call the people to arms to defend their homeland, which has a unifying affect on the country.
It may not be unified the way we would like to see it, but they are united more so than they have been in any recent history.
US intervention had an affect, but no more than any other country. I will agree our policy may have helped fuel what is going on in Somalia, but only about 1 gallon per tank of gas worth.
Of course Clinton had huge opportunities to help Somalia back when shit really got hot, and he avoided it like the plague after some minor set backs. That probably didn't help things either.
But blaming US policy. Come on. There are things you can blame on US policy that actually fit the bill, but Somalia. That region was a wild fire way before any US government official new it was in Africa.

[gregimotis]

This is not really news. ...
...There are things you can blame on US policy that actually fit the bill, but Somalia. That region was a wild fire way before any US government official knew it was in Africa.

Nice post, well said.

[EmptyneSs]

This is not really news. It has been going on since before we first entered Somalia to support UN Aid efforts.
100s of thousands of Somali Muslims have left Somalia for protection in the US and other countries. They are running from other Muslims -- Islamist militants to be exact. Muslims killing muslims for power. Not religious beliefs, not anti-westernism. These Islamist Militants were once all warlords themselves or part of a warlord camp.
Training camps are not new either. Militant training has been happening in Somalia for 20 years or more.
The militaries of surrounding countries have had a huge impact on this militantism as well. Islamic militant leaders have been able to call the people to arms to defend their homeland, which has a unifying affect on the country.
It may not be unified the way we would like to see it, but they are united more so than they have been in any recent history.
US intervention had an affect, but no more than any other country. I will agree our policy may have helped fuel what is going on in Somalia, but only about 1 gallon per tank of gas worth.
Of course Clinton had huge opportunities to help Somalia back when shit really got hot, and he avoided it like the plague after some minor set backs. That probably didn't help things either.
But blaming US policy. Come on. There are things you can blame on US policy that actually fit the bill, but Somalia. That region was a wild fire way before any US government official new it was in Africa.

somalia was always fucked up, but the usa is responsible for alot of recent violence over there. funding warlords to fight proxy wars isnt going to score us any points with anyone. and besides all the bloodshed it caused recently, it only empowered muslim extremists and gave them more reason to take up arms. now that they have taken over the entire country and the warlords that were fighting for the usa have been beaten and the usa strategy has failed once again, somalia is now going to become such an extreme breeding ground for terrorism.

[traveller]

No direspect Emptyness, you have made many valid points in other post that I agree with and have even repped you on.
But you seem to think that some one other than the people doing the violent act is responsible for the violent act.
Is there something you have against the current administration or is it something you have against the US government in general.
Anyone that blames one countries policy for violence in another is missing the boat. A countries foreign policy is only one of the minor details despite what some reporters and analyst would have you beleive.
The US has taken similar action supporting one group over another in numerous other countries -- sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. In Somalia it was US funds and weapons that supported the warlords, but it was within UN sanctions. However, I don't see you blaming any of the other UN security council members or any of the other countries providing support to warlords. Where is the blame on Muslim countries who are backing the militant groups. Don't they have as much blame as us, or is it because we are the last of the Super Powers on the block that we have to do everything right.
The other option for America was to take the entire burden upon themselves and continue to provide a military presence in Somalia. Then you would no doubt claim it was our presence that was causing the violence.
When I was living in Minnesota I volunteered with an outreach group helping Somali immigrants. Not one mentioned the cause or problems in Somalia as being our fault. Some blamed surrounding countries, but most told horror stories about the criminal element controlling or over running the Somali government.
"US backing warlords" as an excuse for increased violence is political B.S. I will agree it affects things to a small degree, but is far from the cause, it is simply part of the fuel supply.
If you honestly think our support has that much of an affect on world events you are missing far too much of what goes on out there in this world. The rest of the world does not care as much about what we think as the news reporters and analyst would have you think.
Just look at current events. Hizballah (however its spelled -- deifferent every time I see it) didn't give a damn whether the US was for against what they were doing. Neither did Israel. Iran loved it when we went into Iraq, but is now against us being there. Not because they want a free Iraq either with no US presence. Our presence just hinders their governments goals.
Blaming US policy is rhetoric that has been used for generations. When a country fails they blame us. When the UN fails they blame us. When a ruler kills 1,000s of his own citizens they blame us.
Yet, when they need help they call us.
In Somalia we may have helped accelerate what is happening, but the course that nation was taking would have led us right to where it is today. The US took measures they thought would help, but would keep our troops out of harms way in yet another war torn nation.
It would not have mattered which group won control of the country -- money would have come in and we would be facing the very same issues, and no doubt the US would be blamed.
We cannot win with our Foreign policy with some people, because they are intent on twisiting every bit of information to cast the faults of the world on the US.
Funny how not too many US citizens immigrate to other countries and we have millions of legal and illegals trying to get through our borders for a better life.
Even funnier how the other major Nations in the world always call on us and are even today calling for us to intervene in other parts of the world.
And we're the problem? Don't buy it!

[grappler-jordan]

^ agreed 100%... were the first nation everyone calls for help, and the first one everyone uses as a scapegoat. Our foreign policy rarely wins us any points with the media. Don't be blinded by half truths and twisted reality Empty, there is more to the story.

[EmptyneSs]

i know i usually dont get all sides of the story, but its just not possible for me to. im a 23 year old kid living in california, and all my info comes from the net. so i agree that i usually dont know the whole story despite trying to. however, it does seem to me from my very limited perspective of the world and our own country, that our nations policies are hurting our standing in the world much more than they are helping us. our policies are very agressive and only make people hate us more. and yeah i do have problems with this administration.

im not blaming all of somalias problems on the usa or the bush administration. however, i am blaming the current flare up in violence on them because they did after all arm certain factions(that are probobly responsible for great crimes as well) that they had no control over. many civilians were caught in the crossfire in the recent violence.

[grappler-jordan]

Like Trav said, we are but a twig on the fire. The war would be fought whether we chose to support one side or not... Our choice to attempt to give financial and logistical support to the side that had the most reasonably sane intentions was the best thing we could do at the time.

In a world where tens of thousands of innocent people are killed everyday in civil and religious war throughout the middle east and africa. America is always going to be ridiculed for our foreign policy because we do not have those same issues at home. People will always scorn us for our freedom, despise us for our relative wealth and hate us for the biblical foundations our nation was built on. That is just reality, all we can do is continue to try to help them regardless of whether they scorn, despise or hate us...

We will not always make the best decisions in who we provide aid too and how much and when and where. Our administration is Fallible, our resources are limited although massive in comparison to other nations. The question to ask is what with the situations at hand and our current resources, who could've done better? If we didn't at least try to support a potentially peaceful faction, who would? Is there anyone else out there besides us trying to promote peace and freedom?

[traveller]

dittos grappler-jordan

[TSG]

traveller, grappler-jordan
So on the money.

Just a note: we started arming somali warlords under Clinton/Gore, Bush just inherited the shit. But agreed Emptyness we did help ingite some extra wood.

[traveller]

Hey TSG
See ya finally found the board.
It only took ya a week.
Of course this library computer system is a big @$$ pain. Can't wait until mine is up and running again.
Back to the thread.
Did the warlord arming start immediately after we bailed from the food protection issues or did it take a while? I haven't been able to actually find any "confirmable and reliable" hard dates.

[TSG]

Remember the food issue was actually in '92 under the 1st Bush. When we went in then Pakistan was there as a UN force, but the UN had hired a few thousand Somali thugs to help protect Pakistan peacekeepers.
When the US went they refused to deal with thugs or warlords or any criminal element and did it pretty much on their own with a smattering of other countries troops who did nothing more than show up. I thnk that was in December '92.
Clinton became president in 1993 and ran the show from there. I don't have the hard dates and I doubt you will find accurate dates anywhere, but it was as early as 94, but NLT 97.
There might be something at somalinet.com or somalilandtimes.net.
To get what people feel in the last year check out articles by Hassan Warsame -- he usually seems balanced and understands Somalis and their plight.
When ever talking about Somalia you have to remember they were fairly stable until 1990 when they fell apart. Nobody cared though until CNN had a few slow news days in 1992 and suddenly every liberal in America was screaming the US needed to help.
When we got over there though, it didn't take long before we were crucified by the same press that helped pressure us into going in the first place, and the same liberals were yelling to bring our Marines home.
The conservative politicians on the other hand were just to quiet about everything, so even if they did have a sensible thought they didn't express it well.
I'll see if I can't find out some hard dates from some of my old buds.
Note to all. Interesting post all around. I didn't expect to find this much world events chatter amongst the MA crowd.
T -- found your book by the CP, I'll leave it at the desk.

[grappler-jordan]

Hmmm, you know what always amazes me, I continually get neg repped on political posts because I am obviously leaning towards the conservative side and being ex-military (and having actually been to the ME multiple time as Active Duty and as Defense Contractor) I have some different views then the CNN informed crowd. What really makes me laugh about it is they never refute any points, never provide any real information to back their point of view, shoot they never even post at all. But they neg rep you all day for your views... I got 3 neg reps for post #8 but only positive response...

Not that I really care, I actually find it amusing...

[traveller]

I have noticed the trend Grappler-Jordan.
I got negged for what I thought was fair point of view.
But of course what do you expect. They take their cue from weak leaders who do precisely the same thing on the national and international level. I try to maintain my own opinion based upon actual evidence.
The fact is there are just to many SHEEPLE out there who worship the CNN god and don't take time to think for themselves.
If they are going to disagree they should at least take a public stand like Emptyness does. Emptyness takes the time to post and respond, even though he admits he is limited as to where he gets his info, and has not had the opportunity to see any of it first-hand.
I guess the neg reppers either don't know jack about the subject, can't figure out how to use a search engine, or can't read.
Oh well, I guess I will be down ten points after that.

And yes -- they are amusing little creatures aren't they. I think they are just so cute when they curl up and say "freedom fighters" when they see a homicide bombing piece of dirt on TV. It's just adorable.

oops another 10 points down the drain.