Shooting

[Tom Yum]

I've got pretty good precision when fresh (pretty tight groupings) and mediocre accuracy with the 9mm round at 20-25 or so feet. At 10 feet or less, accuracy isn't much of a problem.

I'm pulling slightly to the left it seems, so I compensate by placing the sites a little to the right. I fire slowly, while exhaling and try my best to keep it steady.

I'm going to get qualified with the M-9 soon and expect to get some excellent instruction. I'm also going to read up on FM's to learn assembly/dissasembly and try to do it for time.

Any advice on improving accuracy?

Obviously I'm going to get as much time downrange as I can, but on top of that are there any techniques or mindsets that will improve accuracy for the beginner?

Same question, but for heavier rounds (.357 and up). At 10+ feet, my accuracy is unsatisfactory.

Thanks.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Wish you well, Tom.

Mike, sounds like he knows what he's talking about so I'd follow his advise. (at least over mine)

I don't know this "freehand shooting" Mike is taking about, but the way he describes it sounds like how cops are (or were) trained to shoot with chest forward and both arms parallel to each other. I never understood this way of shooting. The way I was taught in the military was to use what we called the "weaver stance." Since I'm right handed my right arm would be fully extended and the left arm very much bent and under the right arm (best way I can explain it). We would fire and move in the "groucho walk" like this. We fired standing, kneeling, and from the prone position. I think we fired prone at something like the 50 yard line.

Anyways... only advice I can give is to concur with Mike on the dry firing. Pressing the trigger is so important in pistol craft, you start jerking the trigger and as you know your rounds go all over the place. I was always told, you squeeze the trigger on a rifle and you press the trigger on the pistol. I believe the difference is probably subtle.

One problem I always had with the pistol is my tendency to lean my head downwards toward the side (to look through the sights) as I raised my firearm.

[Knuckles&Knees]

K&K,
The Weaver position used to be taught a lot, and there's nothing wrong with it if you can make it work. What I was describing is often called the Isoceles poition, and it finds merit with a lot of combat shooters because it is a lot closer to what your body does in response to incoming fire anyway. It's a variation on your body's own startle response, and it insures that all moving parts are locked into a position to support one another as opposed to the Weaver. With the Weaver stance, you have a bent arm and a relatively straight arm, and you have a slightly angled body position. The two major problems with this are the fact that the arm structure doesn't support and control the pistol as well as it could (recoil is taken in the hands and firing wrist instead of all the way down both arms and into the shoulders, etc.), and the side facing stance itself. Look at a soldier's gear. His body armor is designed to protect his front and back, and it's weaker in the sides. Why, then, would you want to put the weakest part of the body armor forward? It's a question no military shooter was ever able to answer for me. It diesn't significantly reduce the target you present to an adversary, and it puts the parts of your armor that protect best someplace other than in the way of incoming fire. Bad tactics...
You're right about movement, though. A good "stance" means you're a dead gunfighter. If you're standing still at all, you're a target, not a combatant. Cover and concealment should combine with mobility in a gunfight or you are apt to become a perforated gunfighter with big leaky holes in your person. That is also bad tactics. However, most qualification ranges are more about marksmanship than they are about tactics, so I suggest Tom stay with the kind of basics they teach to bulls-eye shooters and boy scouts. Oh, and by "freehand shooting," I just meant without a rest or support.

Interesting post, Mike. I never thought about that point you made regarding the infantryman's or "rifleman's" body armor but you raise a good question regarding that. Even when I was in - that is within the secondary MOS I held - we were issued vest jackets with thick trauma plates (in front and back), it seems that now this is standard or more standard issue to U.S. ground troops today. So, I suppose if you must catch a round in your upper torso it would be best if one of the trauma plates actually be the receiver and not your sides.

Do you know if FBI agents and other federal law enforcement agents are still being trained in the weaver stance?

[Knuckles&Knees]

To be honest, I can't critique firearms or people and their pistol craft like you. Nonetheless, I could tell in those first 3 video clips that those guys had good control over their pistols, moved well, and fired not just with rhythm but fast.

The shooter in the first video I was very impressed with. He fired a lot slower then the guys in the two following video clips, but the guy seemed poised for combat. As you mentioned, he utilized a modified weaver stance in that first kneeling position - as he walked and fired on the targets it seemed he was in the weaver or slightly so in that too. His double-taps weren't any spectacular speed (but you can only shoot as fast as you can hit anyways) but the guy shot from ease in his "weak side position," not to mentioned transitioned fluidly and with ease to the weak side. I don't think I could have done as well. I liked how he covered both targets (from the seated position) at the end even though he did not fire on them.

The shooting in the follow to videos is fast. No way I can shoot that fast - not if I want to hit anything.

That last video, of this guy Jerry Miculek, was just INSANE. With a semiautomatic I should have no problem placing three rounds on a target in 2 seconds from maybe 10 or 15 yards (if I practiced - I haven't fired a gun in a loooong time). This guy, however, is so insane he's scary! I have never seen anyone fire a pistol let alone a revolver like it was a fully automatic rifle. That must have been some modified trigger pull.

[Tom Yum]

It is Mike, thanks. This post is a wealth of knowledge! I've practiced both the weaver and triangle that you mentioned. The most recent time out, I used the triangle method. All I've been doing is range firing - so your commentary on cover, concealment and movement is a good glimpse into some stuff I may be lucky enough to learn.

[warrior_artist]

Mike has given excellent information. I would only add emphasis on trigger control. A pull to the left usually means your jerking the trigger in response to anticipating the recoil. Practice dry fire alot. Work on keeping the motion smooth. Also a good way to test your trigger control is to use dummy rounds mixed in a magazine of live rounds. Load up a magazine with some live and some dummy (snap caps or orange bullets). Don't count where it's at and shoot at the range. If you're shooting and you the gun goes click, but you've jerked the gun anyways you know you're anticipating the recoil and "pulling" the trigger more than pressing the trigger.

Think of trigger control as pressing the trigger rather than pulling. Press, press, press, press, press, then BANG! Don't make the gun go bang, just let it happen. As long as everything else is in place, stance, grip, etc. (see Mike's excellent post above) then the gun shouldn't move at all if you've hit a dummy round.

That'll take a whole lot of practice. Another good thing about have a dummy round in the mix is that it prepares you mentally for malfunctions and drilling in the immediate action drill/ response to a misfire. TAP-RACK-FIRE. So it serves a double purpose.

I shoot and was trained in the isoceles. I prefer it for a lot of reasons. I've been shooting since a kid and the first gun I shot was my Dad's S&W 29 .44mag 8 3/4in revolver. Not shooting in isoceles would have knocked me all over the place.

And of course movement, but that comes after mastering the basics. As was mentioned earlier you shouldn't be "standing" anywhere in a gunfight. Stepping of line while drawing and returning fire is a must. Remember one of the possible stress induced physiological responses is tunnel vision. Meaning your opponent might very well be experiencing it as he's engaging you. You're stepping off center could very well put out of his sight and confuse him while you respond and engage.

One of my favorite books on the subject (and I apologize for deviating slightly from the topic) is: On Combat by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. I believe it is a must read for all military and law enforcement personnel. It's great mental preparation for entering the realm of the universal human phobia: interhuman aggression, the toxic, corrosive, environment of combat.

Good luck on improving your marksmanship.

[Tom Yum]

Thanks.

The two of you guys have provided a wealth of knowledge on the subject! One of the reasons why I think this site is one of the best out there.

There's alot less fluff and is packed with more knowledge than other sites. Hope to contribute more some day once I build my knowledge base.

[bigred389]

Mike, looks like my last post, and the pointers you provided on my questions got deleted, but I put 400 rds downrange at 25 yds and made MASSIVE improvements.

Accuracy was fantastic, and now I'm basically looking to improve speed. Both between shots and when practicing (re)acquiring a target when firing off the draw.