Definition or Bulk

[koto_ryu]

Where do you get that nonsense about saving their heads? LOL I have read all kinds of things about being muscle bound but never that. They save their heads so as not to distract from their physique, same as they shave their entire bodies. LOL The biggest guy in the WORLD (Ronnie Coleman) has no physical handicaps because of his size.

Actually he does. Coleman, like many of the other bodybuilder types, can barely run as his quads are so large they rub together and inhibit his running. It's a well-known fact that many of them do shave their head because they can't reach it as the steroids they take swells their body out of proportion. Why else do you see all sorts of advertisements for penis enlargement, balding, and bacne in bodybuilder mags like M&F and the like? Because the steroids they take affect them and they want to do their best to cover it up. That's also why many of them have the "six-pack gut", which hangs out over their belt but is still well-defined.

I like this quote "True strength is a combination of explosive power, strength, and muscular endurance." LOL What? True strength is ummmm strength and true endurance is, well, endurance and true explosiveness is hmmmm probably explosiveness.

I'm talking true, overall, functional strength. Strength by being able to lift large unwieldy objects of great strength, and being able to hold and do a lot with them. Take Anton Endres, who did 220lbs for 241 reps in the unassisted leg press. You lay on your back with your feet up in the air, and have a barbell balanced on your feet. You then do it like a regular leg press, but think about how much harder that is. Or take Julius Cochard, who once lugged a 220lb sack over 112 miles in a race and would often play catch with a 180lb keg with others, able to throw that baby almost 12 feet. That's true strength, not doing a bunch of pumping exercises on your body and injecting steroids in your body so much you look freakishly huge. That's why they call them bodybuilders, because they look like a strange collection of body parts.

[SamuraiGuy]

Umm... i wasnt complaining about kids calling me scrawny or anything lol... actually people call me huge... like actually "hey huge"... kinda annoying sometimes lol... and everybody comes up to me with their new weightlifting maxs... example: hey i can bench 200 now.... and i say good for you lol... but yeha what im saying is just get strong.. who cares waht u look like... as long as they know ur strong it doesnt matter what u look like... all the farmers I know.... (I just work at a farm im not one)... they dont look very strong but... the 22 year old guy whos been doing it since hes like 10... before and after he went to school and now he spends all day doing it... he doesnt look very big.. but I dont think ive seen anyone stronger then him in real life... anyway... just lift weights who cares... chances are no ones gonna fight you anyway. Oh and for that blooming thing... I dunno... we have some like 250 pound bench press thing.. and im the 1st and only person to do it younger then 19... (i did it when i was 16)... soo i dunno.

[Tom Yum]

Yeah farm work will do it. The only farm work I've ever done is drive a tractor, so I can't say my strength came from it...lol.

[bred]

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LOL Koto you are gullible. Penis enlargement is just another way for someone trying to build the perfect body to get there. Bodybuilders strive to build what they see as the perfect body. Steroids do not shrink up you penis only your testicles but once PCT is gone though they return to normal size. Have you ever seen a BBing competition? Here are the 2 biggest guys there are Gunther on the left Ronnie on the right. Does it look like they would have problems touching their heads?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/big/2004oly_ian_mro10.jpg

Here is a pic of the biggest freakshow there is touching the top of his head, Marcus Ruhl.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/big/2004oly_ian_mro29.jpg

The gut is from GH the acne is from high test levels. This can be caused by AAS but alot of BB have naturally high test levels anyways so this is a concern to them. You should just stop where you are at until you have facts guy. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

[koto_ryu]

LOL Koto you are gullible.

Considering I used to have many friends in amateur bodybuilding competitions, I learned a lot more than the average Joe. Virtually every single one of the bodybuilders you see in those magazines use some type of steroid to supplement and build their massive physiques. The side-effects of steroids are very common and you can tell just by looking at someone if they ever did roids or not.

Have you ever seen a BBing competition? Here are the 2 biggest guys there are Gunther on the left Ronnie on the right. Does it look like they would have problems touching their heads?

Yes I have, as my friend Mundo was very involved in the amateur bodybuilding world and he was the reason why I learned so much regarding what they do. I've only done drug-free powerlifting myself, but I can recognize a roid user a mile away

The gut is from GH the acne is from high test levels. This can be caused by AAS but alot of BB have naturally high test levels anyways so this is a concern to them. You should just stop where you are at until you have facts guy. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

You obviously don't, as you have no idea of what my background is or where I've been or what I've done. You just naturally assume that anyone that doesn't agree with the pumping methods you prefer is wrong or training incorrectly. I've already said where much of my experience came from, you just claim because a few pics and a website or two teach you something then you're an expert as you present no relevant experience to back up any of your claims. All your bodybuilding heroes from those magazines use steroids, sorry to say. You can see the difference between those who built theirs naturally and those who took the easy way out.

Look at Bodybuilding.com, one of the most popular of all sites and it has a whole section devoted to steroids, including cycle logs, first-time information, and things to buy to counter the side effects.

[bred]

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I haven't ever done a pumping routine in my life lol. I am a small guy compared to most and I have never aspired to be a BBer only to become educated. I never said they didn't use AAS. Where did that come from? I love how you took off on this AAS thing. I never said they didn't use AAS. lol Are you argueing with someone else, that maybe we don't see here? You can recognize a roid physique just by looking? That is such an ignorant statement. What side-effects are you able to see? "Bitch tits" or gyno, which is common in people who struggled with hormonal imbalances through puberty. Acne- another thing people battle through puberty. The only one I can really think of as obvious is testicualr atrophy but, how would you know if they were just small to begin with or not? If you even cared to examine. I think you think anyone bigger than you or perhaps genetically superior to you is on AAS. This makes you feel better about yourself. This is the internet fella, I could be anyone, credentials and "experience" hold no importance here. lol Yes, I am an expert. I remember saying that *sarcasm*. So just stop it already lol.

[koto_ryu]

if they were just small to begin with or not? If you even cared to examine. I think you think anyone bigger than you or perhaps genetically superior to you is on AAS. This makes you feel better about yourself.

Actually, there is a number of things you can look for which if you see multiples of them you can tell. For instance:

**Purple or red spots on the body which aren't bruises
**Excessive acne around the neck, shoulders, back, and face area
**"Spiderweb veins" all over the body
**Jaundice
**Ankles and lower legs swell out
**Stretch marks around muscle areas as the muscles grow too quickly
**Upper traps are swollen out of proportion (they're not tight and defined like they normally would be due to hard work, they bulge out in an odd way)
**Constant headaches and nausea

There's many other things as well, these are the first ones I look at when either looking at someone in the gym or in a magazine. The swollen upper traps is a good example of someone who uses steroids as building muscle naturally will not do that.

Take a look at this guy (http://www.bodybuilder-photos.com/ga...b-IMG_0017.jpg).

Already you can tell he is just by looking at him. The swollen upper traps, veins that bulge out unnaturally (veins will bulge out whenever you get larger but there's a big difference between those and the spiderwebs), the six-pack gut, balding already, and his one ankle looks a little swollen though it could just be the camera angle.

Now look at this guy (http://www.giftofstrength.com/images...2002_Cover.jpg)

Notice how his upper traps are nice and tight, he actually has a good waistline that goes in and has a six pack rather than bulging out grotesquely with a six pack. He does have some veins but in the right places, not bulging all out all over his body. While I'm sure he does use supplements and the like, none of it was gotten due to steroids. Big difference right there. You definitely need to do more research before you begin disagreeing with others' opinions, best way I learned was to absorb what everyone said and discard what wasn't useful, keep what was.

And as for not having a lot of first-hand experience, it'd probably be wise to listen to those who do Just a thought.

[bred]

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Jaundice and redspots are common in anyone who destroys their liver like alcoholics or anyone who abused aspirin. Vascularity is a genetic trait that is exposed due to low bodyfat. Excessive acne lol your kidding right? This is a problem for a lot of people young and old. Headaches and nausea are common in people with high blood pressure. Some AAS cause liver problems and high blood pressure but so do a ton of other things. You can't be serious about the large traps tho' LOL... that is just stupid. OK the six-pack gut comes from excessive eating and GH. GH is not a roid. Fat people have swollen ankles and feet and it is also a common problem for people with diabetes. Balding already? LOL I am in my 20s and my hairline is going up, it's a genetic thing my father and his father and his father had the same thing. Balding is a symptom of DHT allergies. Back to the veins, veins become larger to accomodate a larger amount of blood flow needed. That picture is Art Atwood he walks around at 300lbs lol of course he uses AAS but how many people are that big? If you saw him in real life he looks like a cartoon. If you saw him with clothes on you wouldn't know he was a AAS user you would think he was a fat slob. How do you know what my experiences are? LOL you are... something. Be wrong today it will benefit you tomorrow. Once again I never said BBers don't use AAS, that was your atempt at... something. I promise you your traps will grow once you find out what works for them, don't be green. AAS is not an easy way out that alone shows your ignorance. You have to work harder at lifting, eating right, keeping your health in check to truly benefit and even then if you don't have the genes to attain that size you never will. You are just envious.

[koto_ryu]

Jaundice and redspots are common in anyone who destroys their liver like alcoholics or anyone who abused aspirin. Vascularity is a genetic trait that is exposed due to low bodyfat.

Research more into it, and you'll learn about the spiderweb veins. Some vascularity is genetic, but not to such extremes. You're basically claiming that all bodybuilders don't use roids, they're just balding alcoholics or aspirin abusers with high blood pressure and liver problems who overeat excessively and have diabetes. LOL, ridiculous is right. You never even touched on the stretch marks, that's the sure-fire sign as when someone begins to grow that quickly their body hasn't had time to accomodate and it stretches your skin in gross ways. And yes, not just one of these indicates steroid use, it's a combination of three or more.

As for the excessive acne, take a look at this: http://www.steroidinformation.com/sideeffects.htm That is far more than what a normal person would really suffer from. And let's not forget those who misuse it and form large open cysts and the like on their body from the injection points and suffer rashes all over their bodies.

You can't be serious about the large traps tho' LOL... that is just stupid.

Seeing as you only come from a book background and not a true weightlifting background, it's time to explain a few things. The upper traps do not naturally swell largely outwards like in the pic of Dorian Yates I sent you above. Your traps do grow from working out but they do not bulge out like Dorian's does due to genetics or natural causes. It's an unnatural swelling, much as the same way their ankles and lower legs swell as well. Most of those large guys aren't even that strong to begin with, they just have beach muscles. It's a lot different training a muscle for strength than for size.

become larger to accomodate a larger amount of blood flow needed. That picture is Art Atwood he walks around at 300lbs lol of course he uses AAS but how many people are that big?

My old gunnery seargent Lorrin Bush was a Samoan, 6'1 and 320lbs and all of it was pure muscle. He was benching 450lbs in high school, and now the man is an animal in and of himself. He doesn't have veins bulging out all over his body, and he's in excellent shape. He can run five miles in under 30 minutes and do 30 one-arm pullups with each arm and is ripped to the core but doesn't have veins popping out all over his body like some carnival sideshow.

use AAS, that was your atempt at... something. I promise you your traps will grow once you find out what works for them, don't be green.

LOL you admit to having little to no experience weightlifting at all and then try to tell someone who does what to do? I'm 5'9" and 180lbs, and I can overhead press 265lbs with a 3" bar. I think I'm doing just fine.

AAS is not an easy way out that alone shows your ignorance. You have to ork harder at lifting, eating right, keeping your health in check to truly benefit and even then if you don't have the genes to attain that size you never will. You are just envious.

AAS *is* the easy way out. Look at all the natural bodybuilders who don't use steroids and how much harder they have to work rather than falling back to the needle. Natural bodybuilders have to do all the same things as well, but they don't fall back to injections. That makes it even harder for them. Even if you read it, I guarantee you can see how silly that sounds, saying roidheads work harder than natural bodybuilders

[bred]

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Natural BBers are the worst abusers of AAS there are they just don't have the genetics to get bigger or the knowledge in training or diet and so they claim natural. I know you are going to say shows are tested, doesn't matter, all they have to do is know the half life of what they are using and stay off long enough before the show. I didn't touch on stretch marks because that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in regards to AAS evidence. My background is assumed again? lol What picture of Dorian? And if you are talking about Art Atwood he is obviously flexing his traps. 6'1" 320lbs all muscle LOL make up something else. Or maybe you are talking NFL linemen style. That is not solid muscle. At 5'9" at 180 you are a little guy much smaller than me. I see where your envy comes from. I hope you don't go to the gym and take showers with guys because everything you list as a symptom is clothes off observation and I don't see where else you would have a chance to stare at naked men. 3 or more in combonation? OKay an over weight alcholic who has diabetes will show liver spots, yellowing (jaudice) swollen feet and ankles may have started to bald and gets acne and is BIGGER THAN YOU so he must be an AAS user. lol I still can't beleive you think stretch marks are a sign and think AAS is an easy way out. You are a very ignorant person who has bought in to urban legends. You seem more the internet intellectual type. Go get a Ronnie Coleman video and tell me he is weak or any one of their videos and see what they lift. You have many many misconceptions. Vascularity again before I go, if you could get down to the same BF% a pro BBer is at for a show you would have freakish vascualrity as well but they are only at that level for the day of the show. They also manipulate their vascualrity by controlling their sodium levels and taking diuretics. Has very little to do with AAS. During the offseason none of these guys look like they do for the show. Educate yourself.

[koto_ryu]

Natural BBers are the worst abusers of AAS there are they just don't have the genetics to get bigger or the knowledge in training or diet and so they claim natural.

That's just ignorance and stupidity in and of itself. They don't have the genetics? Some of these guys are a good size, and they look good and all of it was achieved without steroids. And just because they're natural BBers they have no idea of training or diet? Please, that's about as ridiculous as saying since someone studies a different style of karate from you, they never learn how to kick or punch

All the drug-free shows and competitions, including powerlifting, strongman, and bodybuilding, shun the use of steroids and do not use them. The side effects alone are not worth the artificial gains, especially for powerlifters and strongmen as we tend to concentrate on functional strength, not just overdeveloped mass.

I didn't touch on stretch marks because that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in regards to AAS evidence.

How is it stupid? I'd like a good clarification of why it is stupid other than the fact that you have no way to prove it's not from steroids.

6'1" 320lbs all muscle LOL make up something else.

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/lookup/2004815183225?opendocument

That's Gunny Bush right there, he's Samoan so naturally they're tall and well-muscular.

At 5'9" at 180 you are a little guy much smaller than me. I see where your envy comes from.

I'm a good enough size, 16 1/2" biceps and a good sized chest with around a size 28-30 waist. I keep a good strict routine and a healthy diet so very little of it is fat (I don't obssess over my BF%, but sufficient to say it's low). Arthur Saxon had maybe an inch and 20lbs on me and he was one of the strongest men of all time, so size doesn't mean strength. (Look at W.A. Pullum for a good example of that, 5' 5" and maybe 145lbs but he could lift some very impressive weights). I don't want to be any bigger as this is a good size for me so I concentrate more on strength as I do amateur strongman competitions. Some of the smallest guys there possess amazing strength, and strength is what it's all about in my book, not building a freakish Frankenstein-esque body to look as massive and pumped up as possible.

You are a very ignorant person who has bought in to urban legends. You seem more the internet intellectual type. Go get a Ronnie Coleman video and tell me he is weak or any one of their videos and see what they lift. You have many many misconceptions.

I know he won't be able to do the things many strongmen, or even I could probably do. He's a pumper, he doesn't train for true strength. Back in the day, everyone did the overhead press and if you couldn't get at least 200 pounds up in an overhead press, you were considered a weak man. How many bodybuilders do you see that can even do close to that weight? Take Arthur Saxon again, 448lbs in the two hands anyhow which is damn impressive. George Lurich had 20lbs on me and he could do 267lbs in a one-hand jerk. I'd love to see a lot of the pretty boys at the gym try that one out. Let's see them pinch grip two 45lb barbell plates, or farmers walk with 200lb of sandbags in a duffelbag for a good 200 meters. I'd bet my paycheck many of them couldn't even close the 1st or 2nd Captains of Crush gripper.
I'd like to see them clean and press a 180lb full keg thats not all the way full and sloshes around while you're lifting it. Let's put them in a harness and see how long it takes them to drag a pickup truck 50 meters. They train for size, not strength. There's a big difference between training for strength and training for size.

During the offseason none of these guys look like they do for the show.

Exactly, they get fat and go off their steroid cycles until their next competition comes up, then they go right back to the needle. Many powerlifters and strongmen stay in shape year round, taking maybe a small break here and there. No wonder why we don't choose to build up to such ridiculous proportions as that's not what we're after. We're after functional strength. I'm a fighter, not a roidhead, I train to be strong because the stronger I am the better advantage I have against my opponent. If I was all pumped up, I'd be at a severe disadvantage.

[Broadsword2004]

30 1-arm pullups, goddamn......even if I become an aviator, I am gonna aim for that kinda strength and endurance (I am suspecting mostly infantry guys probably go that hardcore).

I don't know too much on this subject, but I do know stretch marks are something that can happen, because my cousin who gains and loses weight yearly (don't ask me; she just has a strange metabolism) worries about stretch marks (she told this to my sister in private who then told me).

And spider veins and normal veins popping out are different. I have huge veins; they pop out whenever I started exercising very hard; but they don't look like a spider's web, they are just the extra large veins in people's bodies, only mine happen to be larger then average, and thus pop out. Plenty of other guy's do as well.

But I mean my veins on my legs don't pop out like a spider's web at all when working out; there is a difference.

And yes steroids will cause extra acne, that is why teenage boys get acne oftentimes. Because their bodies' get a surge of testosterone since they are turning from boys to men. As the testosterone levels decrease some as they grow older, this usually stops. Even guys in their 20s have to worry about acne though; they even say, "Unless you want serious acne, wash your face after a hard workout."

Steroids are a synthetic form of testosterone remember, and they will cause acne a lot of times.

[bred]

They gain weight in the off season to gain more muscle and that is when they do cycles. Stretch marks come from coolagen break down due largely to poor hydration, rapid weight gain or a growth spurt like kids tend to go through. I have never touched AAS and I have stretch marks where my soulders tie into my chest and on the inside of my right thigh. As well as a couple on my arms and lats. I didn't even lift when I got them I just hit a natural growth spurt. I don't have all day to go into why some people can get huge off AAS and others can't, some people don't even respond to AAS, and why most natural BBers are not natural, they cheat, it's a common practice. Why doesn't everyone who competes at the Olympia just use more AAS to get bigger so they can compete with the freaks, the truth is they can't get bigger because of genetics and almost all of them use the same amounts of drugs. No, most of them, like you, do not have an indepth knowledge of nutrition and supplementation as well as the science behind hypertrophy and strength gain. The Bush guy does not weigh anywhere near 320lbs. LOL you have no idea how Ronnie lifts, thats why I told you to see his video, no pumping routine at all. He like me can get a pump from concentrating on 2-4 reps. It is a mind muscle connection. I never said AAS won't cause acne I just said acne does not mean an AAS user. I have freakish veins on my calves and quads and across my chest. I get accused of AAS by ignorant people like you all the time. It's not my fault I have the genetics I do. Anyways, I am done with this thread you won't nor can yoou come up with anything I can't shoot down because you don't know anything you just think somethings.

[koto_ryu]

why most natural BBers are not natural, they cheat, it's a common practice.

I'll have to tell my friend Allen that, he's a natural bodybuilder and I'm sure he'd love to hear how much he cheated on his body to get the development he has rather than just smart dieting, plain old hard work, and proper training.

No, most of them, like you, do not have an indepth knowledge of nutrition and supplementation as well as the science behind hypertrophy and strength gain.

So my diploma from Thomson in Fitness and Nutrition is useless? Bastards!

The Bush guy does not weigh anywhere near 320lbs.

He gets taped every time we have a PFT when they do height and weight as he is always a hundred pounds or more over the max limit for his height. Muscle weighs far more than fat, and different body types weigh differently as well. I've seen skinny guys who weigh 180lb and don't look like it, and short fat guys that weigh less than me and are very overweight. It's all about body type, there is no one set standard that someone who weighs 180lbs will look like everyone else who does as well.

LOL you have no idea how Ronnie lifts, thats why I told you to see his video, no pumping routine at all.

I have many of his old articles from M&F and others in my files in my cabinet, and every single one of them are pumping routines. He's a bodybuilder so all he wants is size, and I remember commenting to myself about how such a big guy like him was barely overhead pressing 200lbs in many of his workouts when my "scrawny self", as you call me, can do 265lbs with a 3" bar for reps.

I never said AAS won't cause acne I just said acne does not mean an AAS user.

Excessive acne like that is a sure-fire sign of steroids, either that or a syphilitic outbreak. Also, misuse of steroids and injections also cause blemishes and cysts in addition to all the usual problems.

I get accused of AAS by ignorant people like you all the time. It's not my fault I have the genetics I do.

First you claimed you weren't that big at all, now you're saying everyone asks you if you use steroids?

Anyways, I am done with this thread you won't nor can yoou come up with anything I can't shoot down because you don't know anything you just think somethings.

LOL I guess not, you're completely correct I've been producing good conclusive evidence behind my views and all you can say is "Ronnie doesn't lift like that" or "You don't know anything" without effectively proving it at all. You need to develop your critical thinking skills just a bit more and present your arguments in a logical way, not just "Nope, you're wrong".

[Broadsword2004]

Anyways, I am done with this thread you won't nor can yoou come up with anything I can't shoot down because you don't know anything you just think somethings.

Oh brother, now that sounds mature.....