Running

[Tom Yum]

My friend who studies Heilkunst has used snow to cure frostbite and heat for serious burns (the burns recovered without scarring.)

I had a friend who studied wiskunde en medicijn and he used warmth to heal frostbite and cooling plus ointment to heal burns...

[Garland]

I told him I could see the new warning labels on exercise equipment already:

That is basicly what every one of my old football coaches used to say...

[Tom Yum]

DAMMIT, I can't pos-rep until I spread more around!

[treelizard]

As far as modern-day bloodletters--do you think people died from bloodletting because a lot of them were getting it done? What about people who used to die from surgeries before docs started washing their hands? Were they dying because a lot of them were getting surgeries? Why is it that the death rate goes DOWN during doctor strikes, which was the content of the article? Interested in hearing your explanation of that.

As far as homeopathy, you could use homeopathic doses of arnica for swelling. It works really well. I dropped a weight on my finger once, was expecting huge bruises but the arnica fixed it right up.

Apparently you've missed the part where I said you would use small amounts of the substance, not the same amount.

I actually think it's more interesting why people outright dismiss homeopathy than in the content of the argument itself.

Dr. Hahnemann conducted "provings" on each remedy to determine their characteristics. He gave healthy people (starting with himself) small crude doses of the substance (not enough to hurt them) and observed what symptoms developed, noting the variety of symptoms unique to that substance. Then he used the substance (potentized) to treat those same symptoms.

I've taken the wrong dose of arnica and DEVELOPED bruises, and same with rhus--wrong dose and developed rashes, and so I was anti-homeopathy for a long time, but then I learned about proper dosing, etc.

Actually, a better criticism of homeopathy (assuming you're not opposed to vaccines) is not to discount the concept of like treating like, but the fact that chemistry states that there is a limit to how much substances can be diluted without losing the original substance altogether (most homeopathic remedies far exceed the limit).

There is some research done that by epidemiologist/homeopathist Dr. Jacque Benveniste saying that water may have a memory and be able to store information about an active substance even when highly diluted. His research (which cost him his job) shows that an antibody solution continued to evoke a biological response even when it was diluted in a 1:1030 ratio of serum to water. This is far beyond the dilution limit when even a single molecule of the original substance would be present in the water. His theory is that the substance leaves some sort of energetic imprint on water molecules that has a continuing effect ---possibly supporting the homeopathic thesis of potency even in dilution.

As far as ice--it can reduce swelling and palliate pain, for sure. I'd rather remove the reason why something is swelling than constrict the tissue. I'm not sure exactly why they don't use it in TCM except that it causes stagnation. I know Tom Bisio wrote about this--someone mentioned it to me when I suggested ice packs on an FMA list months ago. Bisio will use ice immediately upon impact, but he says that ice can produce stagnation of fluid and energy in the area, which can potentially create long-term problems like recurring pain or lack of mobility. (Tom Bisio - the book is A Tooth From the Tiger's Mouth, and here's his site: http://www.tombisio.com/about.htm )

[Tom Yum]

but the fact that chemistry states that there is a limit to how much substances can be diluted without losing the original substance altogether (most homeopathic remedies far exceed the limit).

Can you cite this theory?

Dilutions can be done to part per billion level and even smaller. You'll never 'lose' a substance, unless it chemically reacts to form a new, different substance.

There is some research done that by epidemiologist/homeopathist Dr. Jacque Benveniste saying that water may have a memory and be able to store information about an active substance even when highly diluted.

If you add a substance to water, any substance it either reacts or mixes. Sounds like you are talking about mixtures. Water will dissolve molecules that are like itself; those that are either polar or demonstrate H-bonding like alcohol. Water repels molecules that are not polar, like hydrocarbons (oil). What do you mean by memory?

[treelizard]

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/homeop.html

[treelizard]

Oh, and it's called the single molecule dilution theory, or something like that. Look it up.

[Tom Yum]

"Dilution is never perfect, particularly at low concentrations where surface absorption may well be a major factor, so that dilution beyond the levels that can be analytically determined remains unproven. Remaining material may be responsible for perceived differences between preparations and activity. Of course the water used for dilution is not pure relative to the putative concentration of the 'active' ingredient; even the purest water should be considered grossly contaminated compared with the theoretical homeopathic dilution levels.

This contamination may well have a major influence, and itself be influenced by the structuring in the water it encounters. Although it does, at first sight, seem unlikely that solutes in diluted 'homeopathic' water should be significantly different from a proper aqueous control, it has recently been cogently argued that the concentrations of impurities can change during the dilution process by reactions initiated by the original 'active' material"


Some of this sounds like Dillman's justification of "tongue position" and "time of day", as to why his one-touch KO's didn't work...

[Tom Yum]

Oh, and it's called the single molecule dilution theory, or something like that. Look it up.

If you can find a working paper on the single-molecule dilution theory in any scientific journal, I will read it.

[treelizard]

If you can find a working paper on the single-molecule dilution theory in any scientific journal, I will read it.

I'm not doing your homework for you.

[Tom Yum]

I'm not doing your homework for you.

Its your claim to back up.

You wouldn't want to do my homework, trust me...

[treelizard]

Actually, if you were following, I said that chemistry teaches that a substance that is very diluted has virtually no effect. I suspect that's why you can have toxins in your municipal water under a certain percentage--the debate is over what percent is acceptable. I don't know where I read about it but it was related to Avogadro's number (6.023 X 1023) and after that it's debatable whether even a single molecule of the original substance exists. This is basic chemistry, agreed upon by chemists, I don't really know which journal it was originally published in and I don't really care.

But if you want to read scientific studies of homeopathy, you can start here:

http://www.psicounsel.com/marius/tests.html

[treelizard]

I hope his chemistry is better than his reading comprehension skills.

I've had such a positive experience with homeopathy that I'm beyond convinced of its effectiveness. I don't really care if other people use Heilkunst or not--they have free will, after all. It is interesting to me that you prefer "valid science" that kills patients (with iatrogenic deaths having about the same mortality as heart disease and cancer combined) to "hack science" (that fixed my arm, by the way) that does not kill clients. I'm sure you would have supported blood letting and mercury pushing and called Samuel Thomson's work "hack science" if you lived in that time period. It seems that modern medicine actually kills more people than it saves, since mortality rates FALL during doctor strikes and then rise again when the strike is over. Doctors do actually save some lives, making the numbers particularly concerning.

[Tom Yum]

I hope his chemistry is better than his reading comprehension skills.

My reading comprehension skills are just fine, Tree - thanks.

You came from a classics school, so your reading comprehension is likely better than mine, I would hope.

If you're going to believe in homeopathic medicine, you should cross reference it to proven modern medicine before you dole advice, just to make sure that you won't worsten someones injuries.

I still can't imagine someone pouring hot water on a burn....

or using ice to cool frost-bite....

[Maxx]

Being the person that Mike mentioned above, I feel obligated to make a statement regarding the current topic. There are certain things which are generally accepted in the medical community because they have been proven. There are years, decades if not centuries of research to back up their use, not to mention and understanding of the chemistry involved to substantiate its continued practice.

You put ice on a wound to prevent swelling when it is called for. This will keep the blood from collecting in that area and allow fresh, oxygenated blood with fresh nutrients to get to the area in question to speed the healing process. That is accepted theory. It has been proven time and time again to work.

Now, applying heat to a burn or cold to a frost bitten area....? doesn't compute. I think that whoever came up with that theory may have been hitting the medicinal herbs just a little bit too hard.

I'll be the first to admit that there are certain things that exist in the medicinal world that cannot be explained. Mike took me to see a tai chi master once who cured a wrist fracture I had... instantly. Tai Chi has had a long rough road but it is becoming more and more widely accepted as a method of treatment and a tool for the promotion of health and well being. But I'll be the first one to say that if I get diagnosed with cancer, well... screw the tai chi school... I'm gonna go see a recognized specialist in the medical field.

I'll save the magic and parlor tricks for when everything else as gone to hell.