Unlimited energy from an attacking guard

[JuijitsuMan]

TOM

I'm in no shape to do cross fit. I saw what kind of sets and reps they have in their program . Its not for my current fitness level.

I have furey's stuff. I practiced CC long time ago. I find it good but applicable more to wrestling.


JJM

[Filero]

Right now I've come up with my own plan.

For the next 6 months I want to drop weight (I'm now 185). In fact I'm taking a break off MA to do this. I want to drop 40 pounds (say 30 fat, 5, muscle, 5 water). I figure its impossible to just drop fat alone. I'll do this by doing a lot of cardio and 1 session of weights a week. That's down to 145.

If you do that, you'll definitely lose a lot of muscle and strength along with the fat. You might hold off on designing your own plan until you check Ross's material. It is definitely possible to lose fat, while minimizing muscle loss and gaining strength and power. Proper program design for athletic performance is important. Luckily, a basic solid program is not difficult to design once you understand a few basic principles. One last shill for Ross's material, he put together a sample 50-day program, and gives you the knowledge to tweak it to meet your own goals. To me, given your long term goals, the program you described above makes little sense; even in the short term, there's no need to sacrifice muscle and strength for fat loss, in fact in my experience strength work accelerates fat loss. In addition, periodizing the way you have below is not IMO the best path for a beginner. Give yourself a chance and learn a little bit about program design first!

[Tom Yum]

I have furey's stuff. I practiced CC long time ago. I find it good but applicable more to wrestling.


JJM

Conditioning for wrestling is probably pretty applicable to Jiu-Jitsu.

[treelizard]

I love Crossfit. There are scaled-down versions on the Brand-X website. It is really good for building metabolic conditioning, etc. though for strength I think a more consistent approach might be beneficial. Ross's stuff is good. But I still think it's a good idea to keep grappling at least once or twice a week if trying to get conditioned for grappling...assuming your training partners are cool and you're not getting injured... If I am injured or really sore I'll even sometimes ask my training partners if I can slow roll... or I'll pick partners that are cool and won't use all their weight on me and will give me room to try new things. If it's the gym or the guys you roll with that you're not happy with, I'd look for a new gym where you feel comfortable. Which is a gradual process.

[blitz]

Blitz,

Are you sure these heavyweights are not tall people? If you're short and a heavyweight thick legs can be a curse. I know because I have these traits. For BJJ guard short thick legs plain suck.

For wrestling its great.


JJM

Some are tall, some are short. And like I said, you're giving yourself too much credit if you think you're going to have thick enough legs just buy working out. The people who get big have to EAT alot too. If you don't bulk up like Arnold and eat like someone who is losing weight should, you won't get much bigger, you will just get stronger. Like I said, start training in Crossfit or Ross's stuff.

Also, don't make your own plan unless you know what you're doing. And you obviously don't. And don't think by any chance that you will be able to hang around your BJJ buddies with a good body only. You want to become good at BJJ? You just roll nonstop. Go to BJJ 3x a week, and do one of the workouts everyone here recommended 2-3 times a week.

[Filero]

I agree also, best way to get in shape for BJJ is to do BJJ. Even if you're sucking wind just during the warmups, you'll come up to speed faster if you train, and do your extra cardio/strength work on your off days. There's no way to really prepare for BJJ but to do BJJ, everything else is a supplement to make that more effective. Of course, I'm assuming your goal is to come up to speed in BJJ as quickly as possible; if that's not your goal, if you've changed gears and just plain want to do your S&C program, then that's that. But again, I'd learn a bit more about program creation.

[JuijitsuMan]

Hi guys

Let me post my response to what I've been reading here.

As far as getting into shape doing BJJ I tried that and it failed. Here's why. I went in at 185 lbs at a fairly short height (under 5'8"). I am also fairly old (let's use the number 40 for argument sake :-) )

What I found was that while 95% of my classmates were training aerobically my overweight body was training anaerobically. All my movements involving carting around that excess 30 -40 lbs made me train at a very high threshold (90-95% MHR) very quickly. I found myself gassing from the warmups let alone having the energy to spend anytime in class learning the drills or fighting which was even more competitive. Before these activities started I'd already be gasping.

The worst part was after class. With this high intensity training my appetite went THROUGH THE ROOF. I'd consume sugary foods like no ones business taking in a good 1500 calories -3000 calories extra each week. Thats' from just 2 BJJ workouts. And no its not in my head I noticed a direct correlation between my sugar eating sprees and my BJJ practice.

My body was also tremedously injured during this feeling out process. I'd always go home with elbows cranked from heavyweights who felt like cranking on moves HARD enough to break bones before time was given to the other person to tap out. As a result my body remained in what I believe to be a catabolic state. It felt injured , like a soldier come back from a war.

Now do you really think in an environment like this one can lose weight?

Let me tell you what I did that worked.

In last 6 days I stopped bjj completely.
I got on the treadmill and exercised for 20-60 min in my THR zone. Gradiually in a few days I was up to 50 minutes. I was also working the upper end of my aerobic zone. I reduced my weight training to 1x week to maintain muscle mass as I drop.

Know what? I took off 2-3 lbs already. My cardio fitness is improving by leaps and bounds. I still maintain my strength. I don't have the sugar cravings.

Once I drop to 140-145 I will add in some sprint workouts and 2 bjj classes.

Now HERE IS THE THING.

At the time i get to 140, my cardio will be excellent (not for bjj but for aerobics) and it will serve as a good basis for my sprint work. By doing aerobics 2 x week I will KEEP THE NEW WEIGHT OFF. By adding sprints and BJJ I will improve my fitness for MA. And I figure the 1x week weight training is good enough. Who needs tremdous strength. I'd rather work technique, timing, sensitivity and cardio. The sprints and BJJ will probably increase my sugar cravings again but the 2x week aerobic work will keep the weight in check. Plus the overall calories burned will come more from aerobic fat burning work than sprint work because I will be able to work at a lower threshold in class time due to my new light weight. So I won't get the extreme swing in appetite as much.


Bottom line is I won't push as high on my anaerobic threshold like I did in class before which means I will recover better between sessions. The warms ups will be closer to fat burning aerobics than anaerobic sprints which means I'll have more energy for class.

Now you tell me how I haven't stumbled ACROSS A GEM because by my results and increasing energy it sure feels like I have....

JJM

[treelizard]

JJM, how long did you do BJJ to get in shape before you decided that it failed? Because you probably need to train at least two or three times a week for at least ten weeks or so before you'll know if it failed.

If people at your class are trying to cause injury before you tap out find another gym. Tell us where you live; I'm sure many people have suggestions. Having said that you can't really attribute motives to people without talking to them first. I got caught in a ridiculously painful kimura the other day and I really don't think the guy realized he was cranking that hard/fast. Now he knows.

Eating more when training is to be expected; I try to keep my carbs for the 2 hours after a workout. Feeling sore after class is to be expected. For some perspective, I'm a 5'4 woman and have been training with guys that are bigger, stronger and better conditioned than me for as long as I can remember. There's a difference between exertion and injury.

[Filero]

A half-assed routine that motivates you and that you do every day, beats the best routine in the world that you never do. In the end, JJM seems to have found a routine that he likes and that is giving him results he's happy with, even if the rest of us think his reasoning is faulty and his progress could be much faster. Worst case, I suppose, is that he'll spend a bunch of months doing supplemental work, and then find his BJJ performance hasn't changed much, but at least he's healthier and has enjoyed the ride. At this point, I declare victory all around and move on to the next problem. Nothing to see here

[blitz]

The worst part was after class. With this high intensity training my appetite went THROUGH THE ROOF. I'd consume sugary foods like no ones business taking in a good 1500 calories -3000 calories extra each week. Thats' from just 2 BJJ workouts. And no its not in my head I noticed a direct correlation between my sugar eating sprees and my BJJ practice.

It's normal to want to eat after having a great workout. However, it's one thing to eat a healthy snack, and another thing when you have no self control what so ever. And I wouldn't blame that on BJJ or your weight, I'd just call that giving in. And trust me, I used to pack so much food after my BJJ practice, and I admit I was weak.

My body was also tremedously injured during this feeling out process. I'd always go home with elbows cranked from heavyweights who felt like cranking on moves HARD enough to break bones before time was given to the other person to tap out. As a result my body remained in what I believe to be a catabolic state. It felt injured , like a soldier come back from a war.

That's pretty normal for beginners, you don't know when to tap. And you're using muscles you've never used before, even if you lift regularly aka muscle soreness. And you can simply ask whoever you're rolling with to take it easy, and they probably will.

Let me tell you what I did that worked.

In last 6 days I stopped bjj completely.
I got on the treadmill and exercised for 20-60 min in my THR zone. Gradiually in a few days I was up to 50 minutes. I was also working the upper end of my aerobic zone. I reduced my weight training to 1x week to maintain muscle mass as I drop.

Know what? I took off 2-3 lbs already. My cardio fitness is improving by leaps and bounds. I still maintain my strength. I don't have the sugar cravings.

You're going the wrong way if you're lifting only once a week. You won't feel heavy if you have muscle, you will feel heavy if you solely have fat. Personally I think you lack will power, in addition to being stubborn and not knowing what you're doing. Hire a personal trainer or something, it doesn't look like you are going to reach your goals by simply doing what you listed.

[Filero]

I can't help myself ... this thread is interesting both because all the responses are interesting, and because it's fascinating to watch JJM dismiss all those responses

One more response here ... I think part of the problem is JJM has done some research, and learned just enough to mis-diagnose what he's seeing. Certainly, I worry a bit when a raw beginner starts asking about periodization. Part of the problem is, I think, here:

What I found was that while 95% of my classmates were training aerobically my overweight body was training anaerobically

It's easy to mis-diagnose what you're feeling here. I would venture to say that anyone working hard in a typical BJJ session (hard warmup then technique training then sparring) is going to be working all three energy systems very hard, whether it seems that way or not. True, the more advanced folks have more work capacity in all three energy systems, and they can also recover faster -- but nevertheless they are working everything. Still, if this were the only thing going on, then a period of dedicated conditioning before formal training might make some sense. Alas, there's at least two other factors at play.

One is that there is specific adaptation to a particular movement. Or, in other words, if I have a guy who trains (say) on a bicycle until he's in fantastic condition, and then train another guy specifically doing armbar-from-guard over and over, and then I get both guys into an armbar-from-guard conditioning drill ... the guy who has trained armbar-from-guard will probably outperform the bicyclist even if a-f-g guy isn't in quite as good shape. That's because the body adapts to the specific movements and demands placed on it, and the CNS and conditioning of a guy who has been training armbar-from-guard will be more efficient even if he's not in as good condition overall.

Perhaps even more of a factor, participants in combat sports incur mental stress that is not part of any other sport, even in the relatively "safe" confines of BJJ knee-sparring. Anyone who has boxed or done BJJ can tell stories of a new guy coming in from another sport who was in ferocious cardio shape, but gasses out in sparring in minutes, due to the horrific mental load and consequent physical response (overly tight muscles, leading to tiredness and slowness, leading to being in a bad position, leading to more mental stress and physical stress). The way to combat this is to spend time in the ring or on the mat. You can make leaps and bounds in your mental toughness in literallly just a few months, but it requires getting mentally used to the stress of combat sports. Soon enough, you'll find yourself relaxing, and at least for myself, that made a much MUCH bigger difference in my work capacity than just getting in better shape.

Which could be why our friend is going the way he is. He's thinking that is entirely a game of who has the best cardio and GPP, whereas specific adaptation to the movements of your sport, plus mental adaptation to the demands of all combat sports, may be even more important parts of the equation. Which is why most of us think he's going to spend all these intervening months working on his GPP only to get shocked at how little that translates into endurance on the mat, until he puts in the mat time to develop the other attributes.

[thaiboxer67]

sorry i can't leave this alone. first let me state, i am a mere white belt in bjj. i am however on a large comp. team on the east coast. i am also 41 years old and could lose 20 pounds just to look real pretty.both elbows are a bit tweaked. this stuff happens in bjj. you gotta learn to tap. my injuries occured because i thought i could get out of a juji-gatame arm lock...ha ha i made it worse.still i am on a team and i am expected to at least put forth some effort to escape assuming it is feasible and won't hurt me. i am sore somtimes. i don't always crave sugar, bjj does not make you a sugar addict. as for aerobically? i assume they were doing slow drills...cause if you spar, it is 99% anerobic. also hire a pro to design your program, you don't have the exp. to do it. take 10 months off, if you compete in naga after that and you come across me you will wish you had the extra heaviness of muscle.it moves you unlike fat. i don't mean to be harsh but getting better at something by not doing it is like quitting before you start. good luck.

[Middleweight]

I also want to point out that this new program should be for the grappler who is not necessarily doing 5 minute round competitions, but rather someone who grapples in class for 20-30 minutes 3x week.

While 30 minutes doesn't sound hard, moving your body for 30 minutes non stop when on your back with all your weight against you seems like torture.

Anyone here train to kick butt against classmates instead of competition? Us older guys don't have time or energy to peak for events anymore, with other life responsibilities.

You're feedback on this thread is greatly appreciated.

JJM

Geesh!! 30 minutes??!!

I work out in two places: 3-4 x a week at a weight training gym that has a heavy bag. I do both weights and then 3 x 3m on the bag. Skip for as long as I can, then enough already. 2-3x a month at a boxing club. I will spar with the young 'uns. 3 x 3 is no longer attainable for me. 3 x 2 mins is tough enough.

Mostly I work at not letting them kick MY butt. (I am smart enough to avoid the power hitters, cuz' I am over 60). Just boxing.. for speed, timing, balance and stay sharp

I am not a grappler, but thought this might be worth a nickel or two

[Middleweight]

Hi guys

Let me post my response to what I've been reading here.

As far as getting into shape doing BJJ I tried that and it failed. Here's why. I went in at 185 lbs at a fairly short height (under 5'8"). I am also fairly old (let's use the number 40 for argument sake :-) )

What I found was that while 95% of my classmates were training aerobically my overweight body was training anaerobically. All my movements involving carting around that excess 30 -40 lbs made me train at a very high threshold (90-95% MHR) very quickly. I found myself gassing from the warmups let alone having the energy to spend anytime in class learning the drills or fighting which was even more competitive. Before these activities started I'd already be gasping.

The worst part was after class. With this high intensity training my appetite went THROUGH THE ROOF. I'd consume sugary foods like no ones business taking in a good 1500 calories -3000 calories extra each week. Thats' from just 2 BJJ workouts. And no its not in my head I noticed a direct correlation between my sugar eating sprees and my BJJ practice.

My body was also tremedously injured during this feeling out process. I'd always go home with elbows cranked from heavyweights who felt like cranking on moves HARD enough to break bones before time was given to the other person to tap out. As a result my body remained in what I believe to be a catabolic state. It felt injured , like a soldier come back from a war.

Now do you really think in an environment like this one can lose weight?

Let me tell you what I did that worked.

In last 6 days I stopped bjj completely.
I got on the treadmill and exercised for 20-60 min in my THR zone. Gradiually in a few days I was up to 50 minutes. I was also working the upper end of my aerobic zone. I reduced my weight training to 1x week to maintain muscle mass as I drop.

Know what? I took off 2-3 lbs already. My cardio fitness is improving by leaps and bounds. I still maintain my strength. I don't have the sugar cravings.

Once I drop to 140-145 I will add in some sprint workouts and 2 bjj classes.

Now HERE IS THE THING.

At the time i get to 140, my cardio will be excellent (not for bjj but for aerobics) and it will serve as a good basis for my sprint work. By doing aerobics 2 x week I will KEEP THE NEW WEIGHT OFF. By adding sprints and BJJ I will improve my fitness for MA. And I figure the 1x week weight training is good enough. Who needs tremdous strength. I'd rather work technique, timing, sensitivity and cardio. The sprints and BJJ will probably increase my sugar cravings again but the 2x week aerobic work will keep the weight in check. Plus the overall calories burned will come more from aerobic fat burning work than sprint work because I will be able to work at a lower threshold in class time due to my new light weight. So I won't get the extreme swing in appetite as much.


Bottom line is I won't push as high on my anaerobic threshold like I did in class before which means I will recover better between sessions. The warms ups will be closer to fat burning aerobics than anaerobic sprints which means I'll have more energy for class.

Now you tell me how I haven't stumbled ACROSS A GEM because by my results and increasing energy it sure feels like I have....

JJM

I dropped about 25 lbs in 6 months when I was about 40. Weight training 4 times a week (still do it) and watching what I eat. Cardio? Not a ton of it. Slow 10-15 min jog on days off. Actually half jog/half walk. Skip rope after weight sessions for 12 mins, and then stretch. At 5-11, I was a bit flabby at 190. Today I am 170 (20+ years later)

Teach yourself to hate ice cream and beer. . . or anything that makes you fat

Be anxious for nothing. Take your time. It will come off. One ounce at a time. Once you get there, keep at it for life

Aerobics don't do s**t for me, but it's a good way to meet women. The weight lifters who train hard are the ones with no fat on them. and you don't have to spend all day there. Don't fret about getting 'bulked.'

Drink lots of water. Load up on fresh fruits and veggies. Liver is good. Fish is awesome

45 - 50 mins of progressive resistance training will give you a cardio session too... just take enough rest between sets to catch your wind. etc

Hope that gives you an idea or two. Personal trainers are worth the investment... Find a good one