astral projection

[marko_b]

Years ago different sciences were considered "supernatural" They went from simple alchemy, that could be done by most highschool students, to genetical engeneering, electron microscopes, discovering and splitting atoms, ect ect ect. If a person from the early ninteen hundreds even, had been introduced to a colour television, let alone todays computers, they would be freaking out because of the "supernatural box" Hell, plastics even. So, as science expands to farther and more complex theories and hypotheses, and eventually "proofs," it may be that someday science will explain the "supernatural" that many people believe in. It is just beyond our mechanics and means to do so at this point. I will not admit that my knowledge is wrong, simply because our understanding of science cannot prove it yet, but I will tell you that as of right now, there is squat for scietific evidance that can prove it. So if that satisfies you, then good. There is no proof. There may be someday, but not now. Hmmmm...I think thats why the word faith is used so much. It implies a belief in something that cannot be proven using scietific analysis, something that, as far a science is concerned, doesnt exist....But if I go back a ways, Anatomy sciences was mostly speculations about what could be achieved would have to be taken on faith too. Now it is standard science. Like space, chezze moon or whatever. You don't know till you know. We couldnt know till we had the technology to know. There was no valid scientific reason behind the sky or the moon or space, it was freak, it was supernatural. Not untill science grew to understand it did it become fact. So religion and metaphysical practices as of now are limited to speculation and theories abound. There will be no proof untill science proves it, or disproves it.(which hasn't happened either.) It hasn't been proven that it is a psychotic state caused by brain chemicals, or a mass dilusion or whatever. It just is an unprovable belief. When science proves or disproves, then it will be concrete. Till then, all we can do is believe or not believe. You say you know for certain it is not real, because there is no proof for its existance. There is also no proof for its non-existance either. There is no way to scientifically analyse something untill there is a meathod and means to do so. We as humans are not yet compitent enough in our technology to difinitivly proove or disprove it.

[jubaji]

This is simply not true. I don't personally need to experience tortue to know that it hurts, for example.

Man, that perfect spelling thing really went out the window!

[jubaji]

Cultists

Atheists don't have beliefs; we have a lack of belief. And what do you mean "push it on others"?

Here we go. Tell me, do you target runaways, college students, and other suggestible types to recruit for your faith?

[Kimpatsu]

Years ago different sciences were considered "supernatural" .

This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what science is. Further, your final statement about "disproof" is nothing to do with science. Science is about the falsification of hypotheses (Popper, Kuhn). If the supernatural, exists, however, it must have some mechanism by which it operates; your first task, therefore, is to supply a hypothesis as to that mechanism, which can then be tested. If the hypothesis fails the test, try another hypothesis. If it passes, then we proceed to round two. All theories, from heliocentricity to evolution to the Big Bang, are open to potential falsification; however, would you like to bet $1 million that they ever will be?
Until you offer such a hypothesis for, say, mind reading, telekinesis, or the existence of gods, however, your posts in this thread are pointless. I would be interested in helping you design a suitable protocol, if you like.

[Kimpatsu]

Here we go. Tell me, do you target runaways, college students, and other suggestible types to recruit for your faith?

I don't have faith (which is defined as belief without evidence). He's the one claiming that the paranormal is real; I'm just asking for a demonstration, of the "put up or shut up" variety. (But how much would you like to bet he'll do neither?)

[marko_b]

*Smiles* See, this is the reason you are going to be working(or have) for a nice sum of cash, curing some random disease and selling your cure to a drug company and getting filthy rich. I on the other hand, get to "think deep thoughts about being unemployed." Frankly, I'd rather be unemployed and constantly in a state of wonder about my current experiance, constantly questioning and rehashing theories that can most likely never be proven; than be rich and totally methodical about everything. Your right, I'm not going to offer proof. But I'm okay with the fact that not everything can be put in their categories and filed away in seperate little labeled plastic containers. And for someone admitadly without beliefs, you sure as hell are very opinionated.*Smiles* This has been fun. Don't take shit so seriously.
P.S.-Yeah, excuse the bad spelling, between Philosophy class and chasing apiritions, I'm pretty tired. So if you don't mind, I'm going to go have supper with Hotie, have a round of drinks with the apostles, and hit the sack with Mrs Cleo.....

[Kimpatsu]

Your right, I'm not going to offer proof.

Actually, I said "evidence"; proof is for mathematics and Scotch.
But why am I not surprised?

But I'm okay with the fact that not everything can be put in their categories and filed away in seperate little labeled plastic containers.

Actually, yes it can. It's called "cladism".

And for someone admitadly without beliefs, you sure as hell are very opinionated.

I said I don't have faith. I have plenty of beliefs, all of which are supportable. I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe that I'm going training this evening. I believe that I'm going to eat curry tonight. I believe...
The difference between you and me is that my opinions are based on verifiable facts; you believe unsubstantiated woo-woo nonsense.
And, sa I said, put up or shut up. Show us evidence, or admit that your beliefs are without foundation, and withdraw.

[jubaji]

persistent, aren't they?

I don't have faith

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I really don't want to debate your religious beliefs. If they work for you, that's great. Just don't attempt to foist them off on everyone, ok?

[marko_b]

I will not give evidence, there is no need. No, I don't have a great grasp on scientific meathod, but I don't need one. If you want me to withdraw because my beliefs have no basis in "fact", I have one simple request. Since in your view, any belief that is not based on scientific reasoning, or anything that does not have sufficiant evidence, is in essence, not real. I would like then, the scientific evidence for a few things. I would like to know the scientific explanations that make these things exist:
*Love. I would like to know the scientific explanation of this phenominon, that, most poeple believe in to some extent. I want to know the scientific equasion and laws that explain this.
*I would like the scientific explanation, about the experiance of looking into the face of your first newborn child, and knowing that your life will never be the same again. I would like the explanation for the feeling you have when you get home from an arduous day at work, you have bills to be paid and your pennies are screaming already, and look in on your children sleeping, and you are immediately at peace.
*I would like to know the reason (scientifically of course) that a man with a family at home, wife, kids what have you, upon witnessing a stranger unknowingly step in the path of a bus, immediately rushes to push them out of the way, even at the cost of his own life. No thoughts, just instantanious reaction. Scientifically, we are animals, and all animal's prime drive is for self preservation. Please explain this.
*I would like to know, how a set of identical twins growing up in as close to the same enviroment as possble, having many experiances that are similar, with seemingly nothing to differentiate the two of them; I want to know the scientific reason that one may become a criminal, while the other a law enforcement agent.
I would only like those scientific explanations, universal scientific truths, and I will withdraw.
P.S. you say everything can be classified, no matter what it is...explain Keith Richards

[Kimpatsu]

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I really don't want to debate your religious beliefs. If they work for you, that's great. Just don't attempt to foist them off on everyone, ok?

I don't have any religious beliefs. What I do demand, however, is adherence to the scientific method at all times; no double standards, and nothing is exempt.

[Kimpatsu]

I will not give evidence, there is no need.

There is every need.

No, I don't have a great grasp on scientific meathod, but I don't need one.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

*Love. I would like to know the scientific explanation of this phenominon, that, most poeple believe in to some extent. I want to know the scientific equasion and laws that explain this.

Very simple, as explained by the theory of kinship selection (Dawkins, Gould). Read "The Selfish Gene" for clarification.

*I would like the scientific explanation, about the experiance of looking into the face of your first newborn child, and knowing that your life will never be the same again. I would like the explanation for the feeling you have when you get home from an arduous day at work, you have bills to be paid and your pennies are screaming already, and look in on your children sleeping, and you are immediately at peace.

Again, kinship selection. See above.

*I would like to know the reason (scientifically of course) that a man with a family at home, wife, kids what have you, upon witnessing a stranger unknowingly step in the path of a bus, immediately rushes to push them out of the way, even at the cost of his own life. No thoughts, just instantanious reaction. Scientifically, we are animals, and all animal's prime drive is for self preservation. Please explain this.

Read "The Selfish Gene" and "The Blind Watchmaker", both by Dawkins, and "The Meme Machine" (Blackmore). All these books are available from Amazon, and will answer all these questions.

*I would like to know, how a set of identical twins growing up in as close to the same enviroment as possble, having many experiances that are similar, with seemingly nothing to differentiate the two of them; I want to know the scientific reason that one may become a criminal, while the other a law enforcement agent.

Phenotypic effects; read "The Extended Phenotype" for that.
I see you mistakenly think there is a spiritual or "divine" cause for emoption. There isn't. I would therefore add "Unweaving the Rainbow" to this list of reading material. Go and read these books, make sure you have understood them, and then return.

[jubaji]

Funny!

I don't have any religious beliefs. What I do demand, however, is...
...and nothing is exempt.

LOL

I hope you are just kidding, 'cause if you can't see yourself as every fundamentalist that ever lived with that shit then I worry for you.

[Kimpatsu]

LOL

I hope you are just kidding, 'cause if you can't see yourself as every fundamentalist that ever lived with that shit then I worry for you.

That's a nice ad hominem, but has nothing to do with the reality that everything is indeed governed by physical laws.
Name one thing that isn't.

[jubaji]

whatever you need to believe is fine with me

That's a nice ad hominem, but has nothing to do with the reality that everything is indeed governed by physical laws.
Name one thing that isn't.

Translation: "My God is the one true God, and I have his word! Let the non-believers be cast down!"

Heard it all before.

[Kimpatsu]

Translation: "My God is the one true God, and I have his word! Let the non-believers be cast down!"

Heard it all before.

Wrong. I don't believe in any gods, or in the supernatural, as there is no evidence for any of them.
You seem to have a childish inability to distinguish between what IS true, and what you would like to be true.