Do you punch through the target, or do you "snap" your punches?

[Tom Yum]

The shorter the contact time, the less penetration you get, and the less damage you do.

The advantage of snapping is the tack of arm tension during contact. People talk about the moment of impact, but really, it has a beginning, middle, and end.

A bonified physicist. excellent!

Punching through the target has to do with net position change at the end of your punch and where you can generate optimum force (powered by your legs, trunk, shoulders and triceps).

Naturally, you want to punch through your target so you can generate the most force given your momentum.

But if I strike the surface and maintain contact for a longer time, I am pushing the bag.

I used the impulse-momentum equation to show that the force generated is inverse to time, like hitting the bag vs. pushing it.

Are you taking the moment that the punch begins as your frame of reference or are you taking the moment of impact?

Please clarify/correct.

[Cobra_nVidia]

A bonified physicist. excellent!

No sir, not here

Punching through the target has to do with net position change at the end of your punch and where you can generate optimum force (powered by your legs, trunk, shoulders and triceps).

Agreed

Naturally, you want to punch through your target so you can generate the most force given your momentum.

Energy transfer, not force. Force is for an instant. It is constantly changing during the punch

But if I strike the surface and maintain contact for a longer time, I am pushing the bag.

A strike is a very fast push. The principle is exactly the same, unless you intend to only strike the surface.

I used the impulse-momentum equation to show that the force generated is inverse to time, like hitting the bag vs. pushing it.

The energy of your punch has to do a lot with the momentum at the beginning of contact, and the time the punch is allowed to "push" the opponent backward

Are you taking the moment that the punch begins as your frame of reference or are you taking the moment of impact?

Unless we're approaching the speed of light, I don't see what your asking

[Tom Yum]

Energy transfer, not force. Force is for an instant. It is constantly changing during the punch

True!! Now your changing our frame of reference from the moment of impact to the entire punch...you wanna get coffee and a chalk board

A strike is a very fast push. The principle is exactly the same, unless you intend to only strike the surface. The energy of your punch has to do a lot with the momentum at the beginning of contact, and the time the punch is allowed to "push" the opponent backward

Yes. As we said before, optimum force (or pressure in actuality) is generated near the end of the punch, several inches behind its target (as we discussed before) but with minimum contact time. Maximum energy transfer happens when the punch reaches its highest speed.

Unless we're approaching the speed of light, I don't see what your asking

You sir are genuine. It doesn't take light speed velocities to hurt someone with a punch. Lets keep the frame of reference in classical mechanics, where my pre-historic calculus and rudimentary diff-equations can handle this subject..

I bow to the psi-operators...LOL!!

[Cobra_nVidia]

LOL...you sir are genuine. It doesn't take light speed velocities to hurt someone with a punch. Lets keep this in classical mechanics, where my pre-historic calculus and rudimentary diff-equations can handle this subject..

Both momentum and acceleration are conserved in all frames of reference, so, again, I don't know what you want. The acceleration in F = MA is independent of the contact time, because the force is constantly changing. The first 1 us of a snap punch and the thrusting punch are the same. They cause an (instantaneous) acceleration and hence a force. The next instant, everything is in a different place, and a different equation (sum of sub-atomic particle equations) is used. Again, time of contact is related to energy, not force. You don't gain more force by touching someone for less time...

[Tom Yum]

The acceleration in F = MA is independent of the contact time, because the force is constantly changing. ...

Yes, my model assumes constant force. Dang, didn't think I'd have to break out fortran and start programming with force data taken from a boxer's punch....lol

The first 1 us of a snap punch and the thrusting punch are the same. They cause an (instantaneous) acceleration and hence a force. The next instant, everything is in a different place, and a different equation (sum of sub-atomic particle equations) is used. Again, time of contact is related to energy, not force. You don't gain more force by touching someone for less time...

True, but you don't increase force by touching something for more time, especially if it stops accelerating once you've begun pushing it (either stops moving or continues on at constant velocity, s.t. a=0).

Well, you are a bonified Poor Hungry Dude on the subject. The point of it all is that punching and pushing are different and when you punch you want to hit something hard, but fast enough that you are not pushing it.

PS - you are the Ali of the physics world

[Broadsword2004]

Maybe we could think of this in terms of power? What is it, power = force X velocity? If you can generate a decent amount of pure force with your muscles, then you just need the ability to move that force over a given distance quickly. When you can do that, you will have a lot of power behind your punch.

A pure push would be if you can say, dumbell-press 200 pounds per arm (or bench press 400 pounds with both arms). That doesn't equate to creating a lot of power on its own. You can have that kind pushing FORCE, but still not be able to punch worth crap or throw worth beans. You can generate FORCE, but not POWER.

But then if you get the right kind of strength where you can move that pushing force of 200 pounds over a short distance very quickly, you generate a lot of power!!

It's a linear relationship. Lotsa force moved at a fast velocity equals big-time power to your opponent's face.

When that power in your fist smashes through their face, it'll hurt a good deal. It deteriotes into a push (i.e. just plain 'ole force) when the delts get tired, and thus your fist accelerates negatively too quickly.

You want to be able to punch the person's face, but knock their head back, not have their head absorb the energy and slow your fist down a whole lot; then it turns into a push.

[HtTKar]

Physics are great, and I like the fact that we're approaching this scientifically. Still, the pragmatist in me says sometimes folks look too hard for what ought to be pretty obvious... I don't know if that's physics, but I can tell you from personal experience that it is undeniably true...Do what works at the time and on that particular opponent, and recognize the pro's and con's of each.

Great post. I'm with you on this one.
It's not about how hard or fast you can hit, how many angles you can attack from, or how well you can block. You have to be able to use it against someone throwing back.

[bbbb]

power

the punch has to be "ground in," i.e. the little quarter turn your hand does near the "apex" of the punch should occurr while in contact with the opponent. I guess you impart torque and impulse?[/QUOTE]

We palm strike (Grab) then punch- pull them into a spear hand.

When we practise on the body pad's or bag at home we are told to hit the bag first, with vertical kung-fu fist. Then thrust through the bag with the twist to leave the fist in a classic boxing type punch-with knuckle poking out the eye's/throat.

To get power to the end of the fist the wrist should be angled down slightly.


what else?!

[bodhisattva]

totally, Mike.

A punch can be pretty, if you want it to be, but its much better if the punch is ugly and hurts a lot. I dig it.

I had a boxing coach with a similar view. He would teach me the mechanics, and then he'd have me go work the heavy bag. He'd say "Oh yeah, don't worry about hitting with technique on the heavy bag, just worry about hitting it hard..make the bag snap on the chains."

I'd be kind of confused. DON'T use technique, but DO hit hard? What?

He'd say "When you're hitting hard, you'll have good technique. So forget the technique, and just make the bag snap on the chains."

I never figured out what he meant until one night in my own basement, on my own bag, that bag did start popping and snapping around when I'd hit it. My punches felt great..I was getting a nice sensation..it was on.

And I knew what he meant. Because when I was really nailing the bag, my technique was there, all of its own, with no concentration or trying.

I think teaching people, verbally, what their punching technique should be like, is similar to giving people landmarks for travel instructions.

When they pass the old blue church by the dirt road, they can say "Oh, must be on the right track">

Same thing with technique. When they are hitting the bag good and hard, and they also notice that their shoulder happens to be riding the follow through of the punch, they can go "Oh, wow. So that's how it works after all."

that's how it was for me.

[Shoot]

I agree with the “both” answer. I snap through the target. However, I voted with the snap answer. I see a lot of people make the mistake of punching too hard all the time. No, I’m not crazy. This goes to what has been said above. Typically, when you throw your hardest punch with major body shifting you lose accuracy. Add to that the adrenaline of fighting or worse, being in a street fight, and what you have are hard shots being fired that typically do not land anywhere worth writing home about. It is better to aim and fire a pretty punch with less force. It’s amazing how much stun a punch with great form delivers. Of course a hard, full committment shot is a knock out punch, but the consequences of missing can be dire in a street fight. People often shoot in at a person who is throwing magnum punches that don’t land. The instinctive reaction to that kind of barrage is to jam, clinch, and grapple. Once the body weight is committed to a follow through punch, you are frozen for a very important second. It is during that second that you will likely enter grappling. Snappy punches with less body weight commitment leave you with the ability to side step, sprawl, or go immediately into a close range game, such as knees. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that throwing bombs is out of the question. THey just need to be used at the appropriate time, such as when the person is stunned with a clean shot or as a pre-emptive strike.

[bbbb]

Physics

What's the physic's of running through someone ala Vitor V's DaSilva...

By the way: how did he get beaten...I heard he's been beaten twice!?

Actually-maybe 3 times: I think I saw one...by some wrestler who's been wrestling as long as Vitor's been alive (Which I saw?!?) and twice?!? by Couture which i have not seen. I he still contending.

?Can you see these fight's on the net somewhere?

Ta

[bbbb]

ah?

What does it mean by" snap my punch to get maximum RANGE"?