Forms... practical?

[kiddbjj]

i know i said that but...

just wanted to further my post a bit by saying that many TMA's do suffer from a lot of politics and dogma. this rarely exists in the combat sports simply because people actually fight/wrestle so people naturally know the pecking order. its all out in the open. which it should be.

freedom from a cult mentality should be the goal. my post was probably overly romantic about my TMA experience but still valid.

of course there is nothing stopping us from taking a traditional approach to the modern styles. be your own teacher when it comes to philosophy and the big picture stuff. its just nice to have a group of people to chat with about that stuff on a regualr basis though like i used to. i think i would get some strange looks if i tried it at my BJJ gym!

check out matt thorntons site: www.straightblastgym.com
he is one guy that really has been successful in LIVING the jeet kune do philosophy, which is to say he has defined his own philosophy appropriate for him.

[danfaggella]

SBG rocks, sometime JkD is gunna sneak me into the one in New York.

Anyways, kidBJJ you hit the nail on the head I think. In BJJ, our training method is PRACTICAL, we learn like would for any other sport, we drill, we spar, we learn new techniques from a coach figure. This is all well and good but it indeed is missing an entire aspect of martial arts. I feel as if I should expereince much of this if I am to call myself a martial artist. 60% of the guys are my BJJ gym are what I would consider low-lives. They are just drinkers and smokers who have 50 tattoos and are always out for a good fight. I'm cool with it I guess, its not like I act that way and its also not like they ever talk shit to me, but they aren't people I'd like to assosiate with. At the Kung Fu place, I see a bunch of generally open minded fellows, some of whome were once terrible students and have turned themselves around with the disipline and self-exploration of TMA. I am NOT a "pie in the sky" philosophy wierdo, but there is obviously something going on here.

My deal is, I will stick with grappling and do it every day, but I will also ADD to it some TMA. This TMA will give me some cool stand up principles and techniques to add to my bit of boxing knowledge. though we may not be learning the most practical way, I am getting something from my once-a-week Kung Fu sessions that I won't find in many sportive establishments, which is not only brutal not-ring-usable technique, but also that aura of bettering oneself, of dicipline and growth.

[SergeTk]

Why do people stand in the hoarse stance and keep ther hands at thier hips, even when one hand is doing block/attack motons the other is glued to the hip.
comments welcome
gracias

There few reasons for keeping your hand on the side either hip height or chest height, first and most obvious it’s out of the way from your other hand or your opponent so its saver there.

Second when someone grabs your hand (wrist) by quickly brining your hand into a chamber you will 90% get him off balance in many CMAs that’s what your looking 2 do.

In forms when one hand in chamber and other out blocking or attacking allot of the times it means there is a lock that could be applied in that particular situation (for more advanced people) or hit for less advanced, you just have to look for it.

Simple example would be punching drill when one hands goes in other out punching. Say in a fight some one grabbed your hand by the wrist now simply apply that simple sequence quickly bring it into chamber and hit the limbs if he still holding on 2 u.

Also if you practice style, which generates power from the waste, some times it also helps to generate power.

[bbbb]

No Takedown's...

Thats my issue, I am doing TMA but I don't think I need all these forms, I wish TMA was taught differently.

By the way do those five elements include grappling and takedowns at all, BBBB?

We are told- you don't wanna end up on the ground.

What is Gappling?- We are taught to control with a grab; then strike and finish. This initial grab is applied via an initial strike_with which we would like to finish them with initially.

[medic06]

Forms are like training wheels. They're restrictive for a purpose, they allow the little 4 year old to learn how to pedal and and learn balance safely. Do they teach how to ride a bicycle? No. But they do allow for skills to be developed so you can learn to ride. The problem is that chances are you have been riding your bicycle for so long you can't see any reason for them. You see them as impractical, restrictive, and useless in riding a bicycle.

The problem with many TMAs today is that they are still riding around with training wheels on and thinking they are really riding a bicycle. IMO I think alot was lost in TMAs, we only have pieces to the whole puzzle. I think in particular alot of the old training methods were lost and many are just left with forms. Unfortunately the meaning of the forms is also sometimes lost so we are left speculating on theories much like an archaelogist studying the remains of a lost civilization. Others have evolved away from the purpose of combat to other goals such as sport competition, spiritual development, etc.

[kiddbjj]

i agree that many tma's have lost there way so far as fighting/self defence training are concerned BUT we must remember that in many cases this was either a conscious or forced decision.

many teachers of popular styles chose to emphasis personal growth and discipline as the main reason for their art, often during peace time.

for example, okinowan karate & kobudo(using farming tools as weapons) was initially invented by peasants and farmers to protect the local village from groups of bandits that were common due to a lack of organised security or police force. however the art eventually morphed into a system of health and personal development when the threat no longer existed.

another example is aikido. usheiba deliberately designed the art as a way to forge the human spirit, build character and foster peace after his experiences during world war 2. this experience made him very anti-violence.

as far as chinese arts are concerned the Cultural Revolution basically killed all the combat emphasis of kung fu due to the governments 10 year campaign against all "unmodern" chinese practices. the teachers still focused on self defence usually fled to taiwan or hong kong. so today the styles of kung fu practiced in china today are mostly for show eg. wu shu, or are primarily practiced for health. YOU MUST REMEMBER the chinese health care system is still basically non existant so the chinese people themselves are FANATICAL about preventative health through good diet and exercise. i have been there and i can tell you that every morning the parks and streets are full of people doing every kind of fitness activity you can imagine. many street corners have communal equipment for people to do chin ups/dips etc on. kung fu in china now is basically all forms practice and chi kung.

obviously the tma's were once the stuff when it came to real fighting. this may be a bad example but if you have seen the movie the Last Samurai you will see that the guys that Tom Cruise trains with mostly practice SPARRING albeit with a wooden sword to hone their sword fighting ability. in other words they trained against a resisting opponent in a sporting adaptation of real fighting because it most closely resembled the real thing. katas/forms won't give you real ability.

so let me put this last question out there to back up my claim that forms WILL NOT make you a fighter.
"who would you rather face in a sword duel? a black belt in kendo or a black belt in iado?"

i would pick the iado guy cause all they do is sword katas whereas the kendo guy spends hours smashing the shit out his training partners in sparring.

[JkD187]

SBG rocks, sometime JkD is gunna sneak me into the one in New York.

Its ok i dont have to sneak you in...any and everyone is welcome there....even though i havnt been there in like 3 months...ive had a couple of privates and classes with Alexandre "Soca" Fertitas in the past few weeks.The man is a genious at BJJ and i learned a few really good sweeps from him.

[danfaggella]

WORD, JkD.

Good posts guys, KidBJJ that was pretty good, especially the part about the kendo/iado guys. Its unrealistic to think that by practicing these "ritual" motions, an iado guy will be able to kill/whipe blood off sword/sheath sword in one smooth fashion. The same principle goes with a karate man and a MT man. The karate guy can do ritual motions and think tha tin real combat he will be able to do "one hit, one kill," but in fact he is a flower fist chump.

Also, BBBB, If I were to take you down and attain Kesa Gatame what would you do about it?

[medic06]

i agree that many tma's have lost there way so far as fighting/self defence training are concerned BUT we must remember that in many cases this was either a conscious or forced decision.

many teachers of popular styles chose to emphasis personal growth and discipline as the main reason for their art, often during peace time.

for example, okinowan karate & kobudo(using farming tools as weapons) was initially invented by peasants and farmers to protect the local village from groups of bandits that were common due to a lack of organised security or police force. however the art eventually morphed into a system of health and personal development when the threat no longer existed.

another example is aikido. usheiba deliberately designed the art as a way to forge the human spirit, build character and foster peace after his experiences during world war 2. this experience made him very anti-violence.

as far as chinese arts are concerned the Cultural Revolution basically killed all the combat emphasis of kung fu due to the governments 10 year campaign against all "unmodern" chinese practices. the teachers still focused on self defence usually fled to taiwan or hong kong. so today the styles of kung fu practiced in china today are mostly for show eg. wu shu, or are primarily practiced for health. YOU MUST REMEMBER the chinese health care system is still basically non existant so the chinese people themselves are FANATICAL about preventative health through good diet and exercise. i have been there and i can tell you that every morning the parks and streets are full of people doing every kind of fitness activity you can imagine. many street corners have communal equipment for people to do chin ups/dips etc on. kung fu in china now is basically all forms practice and chi kung.

obviously the tma's were once the stuff when it came to real fighting. this may be a bad example but if you have seen the movie the Last Samurai you will see that the guys that Tom Cruise trains with mostly practice SPARRING albeit with a wooden sword to hone their sword fighting ability. in other words they trained against a resisting opponent in a sporting adaptation of real fighting because it most closely resembled the real thing. katas/forms won't give you real ability.

so let me put this last question out there to back up my claim that forms WILL NOT make you a fighter.
"who would you rather face in a sword duel? a black belt in kendo or a black belt in iado?"

i would pick the iado guy cause all they do is sword katas whereas the kendo guy spends hours smashing the shit out his training partners in sparring.

They do kata in the movie too.

[medic06]

i agree that many tma's have lost there way so far as fighting/self defence training are concerned BUT we must remember that in many cases this was either a conscious or forced decision.

many teachers of popular styles chose to emphasis personal growth and discipline as the main reason for their art, often during peace time.

for example, okinowan karate & kobudo(using farming tools as weapons) was initially invented by peasants and farmers to protect the local village from groups of bandits that were common due to a lack of organised security or police force. however the art eventually morphed into a system of health and personal development when the threat no longer existed.

another example is aikido. usheiba deliberately designed the art as a way to forge the human spirit, build character and foster peace after his experiences during world war 2. this experience made him very anti-violence.

as far as chinese arts are concerned the Cultural Revolution basically killed all the combat emphasis of kung fu due to the governments 10 year campaign against all "unmodern" chinese practices. the teachers still focused on self defence usually fled to taiwan or hong kong. so today the styles of kung fu practiced in china today are mostly for show eg. wu shu, or are primarily practiced for health. YOU MUST REMEMBER the chinese health care system is still basically non existant so the chinese people themselves are FANATICAL about preventative health through good diet and exercise. i have been there and i can tell you that every morning the parks and streets are full of people doing every kind of fitness activity you can imagine. many street corners have communal equipment for people to do chin ups/dips etc on. kung fu in china now is basically all forms practice and chi kung.

obviously the tma's were once the stuff when it came to real fighting. this may be a bad example but if you have seen the movie the Last Samurai you will see that the guys that Tom Cruise trains with mostly practice SPARRING albeit with a wooden sword to hone their sword fighting ability. in other words they trained against a resisting opponent in a sporting adaptation of real fighting because it most closely resembled the real thing. katas/forms won't give you real ability.

so let me put this last question out there to back up my claim that forms WILL NOT make you a fighter.
"who would you rather face in a sword duel? a black belt in kendo or a black belt in iado?"

i would pick the iado guy cause all they do is sword katas whereas the kendo guy spends hours smashing the shit out his training partners in sparring.

Weight lifting will not make you a fighter
Running will not make you a fighter
Should you give up running and weight lifting?

I'm no fan of kata either, and at one time I wrote it off as useless too. but I do see the merits of it.

[danfaggella]

This is true, it has some merits, I suppose many of them invovle flexibility and balance and endurance and such, none of which will make you a fighter. Even though combative technique is implied and we are supposed to "see" it in the kata, kata doesn't teach it to us.

I really have to start that paper of mine about Problems of the Martial Arts.......

[medic06]

I wrote one of those about 10 years ago

[medic06]

I wrote one of those about 10 years ago

The problem is that no one truly knows how to turn someone into a fighter. There are so many different factors involved and everyone has their own opinion of what is most important.