Practicality of Chinese MAs

[arsen]

I've always been a fan of the chinese martial arts. But I've heard they're esoteric and usless in real combat.... but what about all those kung fu movies i've been watching?! Some please shed some light on the subject (preferably someone who knows from experience)

[huey]

depends a lot on the style and the time you have involved with it (just like any ma)
tai chi,hsing i, pakua all take a long time to become proficient. a lot of slow motions in kata form. i don't know of any teachers that teach the combat techniques (i am not saying that they don't teach them somewhere just not around my residence)
san soo, tracy brothers kenpo/kempo Ed Parker kenpo or kempo (maybe both i can never remember), and shou shu teach scenario techniques (the list does not end there i'm sure but i can only talk about what i know).

[Great Sage]

Re: Practicality of Chinese MAs

Originally posted by arsen
but what about all those kung fu movies i've been watching?!:

Please... Are you a moron, or were you just born yesterday?!! Do you honestly believe kung-fu movies reflect real fighting? If so, you need come back to earth before you even begin to talk martial arts. I suppose "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" was all kung-fu: no ropes, special effects...

[Szczepankiewicz]

real combat

Did anyone ever define what this actually means?

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Did anyone ever define what this actually means?

Beware, grasshopper... That question implies a million answers.

[Nobody]

Regarding practicality of Chinese Martial Arts

Hi, Arsen.

There are a few points to consider when asking your question.

China has had a very violent history (please note that when talking about martial arts I am referring to China's history up to but not including the 20th century). Consequently througout that history there have been a great number of people who lived a long life only because of their skill in combat. In principle, Chinese martial arts are based on the combat experiences of those people.

One could argue that Chinese martial arts are bound in ritual and formality and even in olden times were not a simple and practical way of fighting. However, that argument might hold true for an isolated culture (for example, an island culture), but China has been exposed to other cultures all through its history. This includes fighting peoples who did not play by Chinese rules. Even when the Chinese were defeated, the invaders became Chinese and influenced the fighting arts.

In the past, either your art worked or you did not survive.

Some people today say that Chinese martial arts may have been effective in the past, but are no good for modern "street" situations? What modern situations? Is mugging a modern invention? Is a drunk trying to smash a bottle over your head a modern invention? Is rape a modern phenomenon? Remember that the Shaolin monks first learned to fight so that they could deal with muggers.

Chinese martial arts in China suffered under the communist regime. Martial arts were stamped out. It's interesting to note that during the Korean War, western soldiers found that they often defeated (communist) Chinese soldiers in hand-to-hand combat. The communist regime no longer had any hand-to-hand skills to teach their infantry.

When the communists woke up to the huge damage they had caused to their culture, they replaced traditional combat arts with what is known today as Wushu . This term literally means "martial art" but is a sport, not intended primarily for combat.

Outside of China, traditional systems have suffered because the hostile environment that spawned them no longer exists, thus the skill diminishes with each generation. This deterioration is accelerated by the commercialisation of schools.

Many people look at Chinese forms and think that because they (sometimes) look so pretty that they could not possibly be effective. Unfortunately, most people (at least in the West) who can peform a form, do not know how to make it work. Thus the impression given is that the system is not effective, when in reality it is the average practitioner that is not effective.

Of course, the system is no better than its best practitioner and some systems which were lethally effective in the past may not be effective now.

Are Chinese martial arts esoteric? Well, many people consider qigong exercises to be esoteric. Whatever your opinions about "qi", I don't think that anyone could argue that learning to breath more deeply so that you get more oxygen to your blood and tissues can be a bad thing. Nor can learning breath control so that you breathe more easily during stressful situations, such as a mugging, be a bad thing.

In 2001 I participated in a multi-discipline seminar as an instructor. I was the only instructor of a Chinese art. Prior to the event, a student of the organiser wrote a newspaper article in which he said the event would also feature the "esoteric" Chinese arts. After teaching a series of very short, simple and brutal techniques during the seminar, I asked him if it was "esoteric" enough for him and he apologised, which I thought was very courteous of him.

With regard to the movies, nothing in the movies is real. Do you think "Kelly Heroes" is an accurate representation of World War II combat? Chinese martial arts in the movies is "fantasy" fighting. It is entertainment. Do not suppose that Chinese martial arts are effective just because you like Jackie Chan. In fact, JC was once asked if he was a good fighter. He replied that he was a good "movie fighter".

Because it's relatively easy to look good doing Chinese martial arts, but quite hard to actually demonstrate the real skill, many so-called practitioners have let those arts down. However, to say that just because some (or even most) modern-day practitioners are not effective therefore no Chinese martial arts are effective is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

All the best.

[krys]

Outside of China, traditional systems have suffered because the hostile environment that spawned them no longer exists, thus the skill diminishes with each generation. This deterioration is accelerated by the commercialisation of schools.

This may be true in the West but not in South East Asia....
Many Chinese immigrated to SEA and lived in more hostile environments (i.e. Malaysia, Indonesia, to some degree Philippines) ..... To give examples many TaiPeng rebels trained in martial arts flew to Malaysia at the end of the war, also when firearms were massively introduced many CMAs lost their jobs and left China ....

They kept their martial arts alive as part of their traditions and for self defence, some of their styles are no longuer practiced in China; these martial arts were sharpened due to fights with locals using different combat methods, useless flowery or purely health improving techniques were discarded as human life was very cheap in these countries and chinese migrants not really appreciated by the local populations .....
The level of traditional CMA in South east Asia is often very high (see Sao Lim athletic association in Malaysia, Ngo Cho Kun athletic association in the Philippines)....
These school are not commercial and it is usually very difficult to get accepted as a student...

All the best.

[Thai Bri]

Arsen. Is your second name "About"?

[Buddy]

Originally posted by huey
depends a lot on the style and the time you have involved with it (just like any ma)
tai chi,hsing i, pakua all take a long time to become proficient. a lot of slow motions in kata form. i don't know of any teachers that teach the combat techniques (i am not saying that they don't teach them somewhere just not around my residence)
san soo, tracy brothers kenpo/kempo Ed Parker kenpo or kempo (maybe both i can never remember), and shou shu teach scenario techniques (the list does not end there i'm sure but i can only talk about what i know).

Neither Xingyi nor Bagua take a long time to become competant given a teacher willing and able to teach their unique way of using power, assuming you can catch it and practice hard. You should be fairly adept after three years or so. There is much more to the training than just forms. Our style (Gaoshi Baguazhang) has a systematic program of body training, basic hand techniques, footwork, qigong, and two person training.
If you've never seen Luo Dexiu in action, get ahold of his vids or see him the next time he's in the country.
Buddy

[arsen]

Re: Re: Practicality of Chinese MAs

Originally posted by Great Sage


Please... Are you a moron, or were you just born yesterday?!! Do you honestly believe kung-fu movies reflect real fighting? If so, you need come back to earth before you even begin to talk martial arts. I suppose "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" was all kung-fu: no ropes, special effects...

listen jerkoff, you obviously don't take to sarcasm very well. maybe you should get your head out of your ass before you deceide to blast people on the internet...schmuck

[arsen]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Arsen. Is your second name "About"?

No. Furthermore I would like to clarify that when I said "What about all the kung-fu movies I've been watching" it was NOT INTENDED TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. Some of you people would get bent out of line and poke fun, before considering the possiblity that it was a joke. A lot of people on this forum find that senseless retorts and insults provide an outlet for your idiocy, I fail to see why everyone can't be nice. To close I would like to say the following, agruing over the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded.

P.S. Thanks to the people who actually provided something constructive to this thread.

[Thai Bri]

Your welcome.

[Nobody]

Irony

but what about all those kung fu movies i've been watching?!

Hi, Arsen.

I don't think there was anything in your question about kung fu movies that would suggest you were being ironic. However, I do feel there was no need for people to be rude to you, even if they did believe you were being naive.

I hope there was nothing in my earlier message to suggest rudeness. Apologies if there was.

All the best.

[Nobody]

Flowery does not always mean "useless"

Krys:

useless flowery or purely health improving techniques were discarded

It's interesting that you should mention the Sao Lim Athletic Association. I studied Hood Khar Pai under a student of P'ng Chai Kim's for several years. There are many movements in the forms that could be considered "flowery", yet I'm sure Master P'ng or any of his disciples would be able to knock seven bells out of someone with them.

My point was that the effectiveness of a technique should not be measured by how it looks but by the practitioner's ability to apply it. The fact that some practitioners can perform "flowery" techniques but not apply them does not mean that the technique itself has no value, just the practitioner.

Regards.

[chris davis 200]

Neither Xingyi nor Bagua take a long time to become competant given a teacher willing and able to teach their unique way of using power, assuming you can catch it and practice hard.

Well said, Mr Tripp i presume! good to have you here.

I have trained with people that are very good fighters, who have only been learning Ba gua or Xing I for about 3 years.

they are powerful hard to get past and very compitent Real world fighters.

As i have said many times - many of the Flowery movement although applicable to combat in some way are there to develop other things.

I have trained for some time in internal systems (not that long - but long enough) and have trained with others from other systems including MT, westrern boxing, etc. I know that the chinese arts are very very effective. BUT they are also extremely misrepresented. With alot of people claiming to be doing something they arnt.

cheers
Chris