Training for the sake of the art

[incognito]

When training everyone talks of functionality af technique and attributes. With the relationship between many practitioners of FMA and JKD my question to those interested is: Are people now losing the authenticity of training in the FMA especially when being taught in phase classes and MMA classes which are offered at many schools.

I myself am interested in every aspect of Kali, history, culture, religion, as well as the functionality. Are there any teachers out there who are still a part of this dying breed. I don't disagree with the natural evolution of the art, but hope that the rich culture that goes with the FMA does not get lost....

Thanks

[sikal]

Re: Training for the sake of the art

Originally posted by incognito
When training everyone talks of functionality af technique and attributes. With the relationship between many practitioners of FMA and JKD my question to those interested is: Are people now losing the authenticity of training in the FMA especially when being taught in phase classes and MMA classes which are offered at many schools.

I myself am interested in every aspect of Kali, history, culture, religion, as well as the functionality. Are there any teachers out there who are still a part of this dying breed. I don't disagree with the natural evolution of the art, but hope that the rich culture that goes with the FMA does not get lost....

Thanks

Guro Dan Inosanto brings a lot of the history, culture out in his discussions at seminars. I've only attended a couple of classes at his school. He discussed some of the history of Silat in his Silat class but not in the Kali class. The Silat class was a beginner's class. The Kali class was an advanced class. I would guess that he brings this stuff out in the beginner Kali classes as well ... but can't say for certain since I've not attended any.

My instructor does talk some about history and culture ... but it's kind of cursory. I think that he feels that if someone is serious, they will at the very least ask him ... and if they're really serious, they'll research it on their own. He knows a lot about the history of the FMA and IMA (what he teaches) and is more than willing to discuss it when asked.

Mike

[Kevin]

Personally, my main focus is funtionality... I do however have an interest in the history.
My Kali instructor still teaches in the manner he was taught, and relays to us his stories of training in the PI as child.

Brings up an interesting question though... were those individuals that you think of as being "traditional FMAist" not looking outside there own culture for things that were not native to the PI? Haven't the Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian, etc..., martial ways been incorporated into the FMA to such a degree that we now think of them as being strictly Filipino?

Some might argue that a parallel could be drawn between those seeking "Original FMA" and those seeking "Original JKD". When a martial way is all about continual adaption to remain functional, it seems ironic that someone who would embrace that methodology would prefer to go back in time and remail stagnant in one certain time frame.


With that being said.... I believe that it is important that history be studied, and saved for posterity. It would be really nice if someone would get some of the great masters, who are up there in years, on tape before they are gone.

Take care...
~Kev

[sikal]

Originally posted by Kevin
Personally, my main focus is funtionality... I do however have an interest in the history.
My Kali instructor still teaches in the manner he was taught, and relays to us his stories of training in the PI as child.

Brings up an interesting question though... were those individuals that you think of as being "traditional FMAist" not looking outside there own culture for things that were not native to the PI? Haven't the Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian, etc..., martial ways been incorporated into the FMA to such a degree that we now think of them as being strictly Filipino?

Some might argue that a parallel could be drawn between those seeking "Original FMA" and those seeking "Original JKD". When a martial way is all about continual adaption to remain functional, it seems ironic that someone who would embrace that methodology would prefer to go back in time and remail stagnant in one certain time frame.


With that being said.... I believe that it is important that history be studied, and saved for posterity. It would be really nice if someone would get some of the great masters, who are up there in years, on tape before they are gone.

Take care...
~Kev

Yes, Kev, I couldn't agree more. I think it's important not to get caught up in the past. But, like you, I think it's also important to be aware of the history, culture, and environment (including "foreign" sources) that spawned the art. I think this gives a better understanding of it ... and may, in some instances, even help with the application/training/teaching of it.

Mike

[Guro Dave Gould]

For the sake of the art...

Incognito,
Hello there, I hope that all is well with you. You posed an interesting question. Here`s What I think. First off the original indigenous pilipino / malay warrior arts were and still are trained for the sake of combat. The question should be whether this knowledge is solely Pilipino or Pilipino / Spanish. I will try and shed some light on this.
If you want true authentic pilipino warrior arts you would be hard pressed to find any as you would have to locate a specific system that has been taught without breaks, subtractions or additions since before 1521. There is one system that may help you in this aspect. The Lapu-lapu system was supposedly passed down from the lineage of Datu Lapu-lapu the last known grandmaster of this system Jose Binas died I believe in 1996 and I am uncertain who he past it down to.
But in mentioning this system there are no guarantees that the knowledge passed down from generation to generation is authentic, or even accurate in any way as to how the system was before the pre-invasion era of Mactan Island. For all we know it could have only obtained his name sake well after he passed away. No one knows for sure what was and was`nt included in pre-hispanic pilipino warrior arts. There is no specific literature available on the indigenous arts before the invasion of Mactan in 1521. Other than the diaries of the Spaniards who fought the indig. pilipino warriors there at Mactan we have no first hand knowledge of the existing warrior arts. The spanish were impressed with the native pilipino combat arts effect but they did`nt go into specifics in describing how they were fighting, they mention the types of weapons involved and stated that they were effective and nothing more.
As time went on during the occupation the Spanish outlawed the practice of these indigenous warrior arts from the natives. They ackknowledged how effective they were and took appropriate actions to try and quell the knowledge. We do get some insight into how the system may have looked at that time through the moro-moro dances reputed to have pieces of the art hidden within for the sake of passing it down to future generations.
We know that the indigenous pilipino warrior arts did exist before the Spanish invasion in 1521 only because they had the knowledge to fight the spanish. For all we know the arts could have been in existance for only a few years before the invasion or for thousands of years, who`s to say for sure. There is no hard evidence supporting either scenario, we just simply don`t know.
I guess that we could go by word of mouth but then the reliability of what is spoken is questionable by its very nature. Everyone will tell you that their system is authentic and has little or no Spanish influence to it. I think that at best we have the pilipino warrior arts influenced by spanish sword and dagger technique along with many other local influences throughout the region at some point or another. It is pilipino at the root but the leaves on the tree are cross cultural to be sure.
Having said this does it matter if these arts are truely indigenous to the Philippines or not??? They are very effective and have proven their effect in combat time and time again. Often times evolution has proven that over time something effective can be made much more effective given time, technology and circumstance to improve upon itself.
I train to be effective in combat and only care for the functional means of the system. I feel that these warrior arts were brought forth for the sole means of preparing warriors for combat and nothing more. I think that they should continue to be taught in this vein and not prostituted into sporting events. In saying this I think that we all owe it to ourselve to find out about the history and culture if for no other reason than to pay homage to all of those brave warriors who lost their lives in passing down this knowledge from generation to generation. Just my opinion... Take care guys, ciao.
~ Guro Dave Gould.

[thekuntawman]

i think incognito is talking about a class that will give more than just techniques like how to do this move or that move. perhaps he is looking for a school that will develop him to more than fight like a warrior, but how to live like a fighter, and think like a fighter and stuff like that.

my advice for incognito is to avoid the guys who are selling things like books video and seminars. i recommend finding a teacher who will mold you as a student and fighter, instead of visiting every few months. that is not saying a teacher who sales these videos cant teach you, but i am saying he will have better luck finding what he wants in a teacher who can focus on him when he is there, not stick to a schedule because there is not enough time or too many people to see.

maybe you will have to travel to see your teacher when you find one, but you know most of the freat teachers we read about did not study very long with there teachers instead they travelled and visited there teachers for only a few days at a time, but the learning relationship lasted longer and it was more focused between two people.

and for lapu lapu having a style that was pass down though generations, dont believed everything you read. if you go the philippines (especially if you are righting a book or newspaper) you will find at least 100 teachers who say there art belongs to lapu lapu. we are talking about 400 years! not even the language stays the same that long, come on!

but you know even in the philippines, people arent teaching a lot of culture with the art, accept maybe some etiquette for fighters and teachers and the classroom. mostly you will find fighting strategy, then maybe building up someones personality to become a "warrior" (better, smarter, more confident fighter) or a teacher (politician, leader, and good example to represent a style). those things will have to be taught one to one, not really in a group.

[ILONGGO]

with all due respect, dave, jose bi&#241as grew up in the island of panay, which is quite a distance from cebu or mactan. to be more specific, in a town called barotac nuevo. i believe he was practicing arnis long before it was known as the lapulapu system. as a matter of fact, he was practicing arnis with his cousin herminio. the town were they grew up wasn't that big of a town, so i'm assuming everybody (as kids) were pretty much doing the same style, pretty much just copying off of each other and eventually adding their own personal flair. how do i know about this? my grandfather grew up with those guys...

i kinda understand what incognito is talking about. i'm in the same dilemma myself. i find myself getting caught up in the arts history and what not. i'm a married man with three kids, and being a practitioner in MA, at the moment, i'm torn in whether i should continue practicing BJJ, which i know is a very practical art or start doing FMA since i just found out there's an instructor not too far from where i live. i would love to train on both, since they complement each other, but due to family , job and other current commitment i'm forced to just take one or the other. i'm not saying FMA is less practical than BJJ, it's just that in today's society, when one uses weapon in confrontation, it's guarantee jail time.

sikal, who was your instructor? are you familiar with steve hacht?

[Guro Dave Gould]

Hi guys,
If you read my post more carefully you will see that I am not saying without a doubt that the Lapu-lapu system is a true authentic system (pre-hispanic) in the philippines. I was using it as an example that for you to find a legit system you would have to look for something that has been complete without change dating back to the time of Datu Lapu-lapu. You would have to find such a system in order to reflect the true essence of Indigenous pilipino influence. If you go on to read what I wrote I said that, i`ll para phrase; "there is no guarantee that this system is authentic in being passed down from generation to generation or if it just took his namesake (Datu Lapu-lapu) and nothing more".
I in no way was trying to say that this system was definetly passed down from Datu Lapu-lapu and that in its current form was the only authentic system. As for panay / Bacolod City where Master Binas was it is`nt so far from Cebu / Mactan. And even if it were 480 years is a long time for decendants to get scattered about. Suffice to say there are probably decendants of Lapu-lapu to be found in Hawaii, California or any other place that pilipinos fled to shortly after the invasion of Mactan.
As a matter of fact you would probably have more success in finding an authentic pilipino warrior art with much less spanish influence on the island of Oahu (Hawaii) where so many Illongos fled to around the time of the invasion of Mactan or shortly there after. Since the Spanish did`nt occupy Hawaii it would suffice to say that maybe at least one system survived somewhat in tact to the original format of what was the indigenous pilipino warrior arts. Or maybe not as 480 years is a long time there is no guarantees that if there was a truely authentic pre-hispanic system being taught in Oahu whos to say that it too did`nt get tainted from other pilipinos who eventuall went to Hawaii to stay or visit family and friends etc...
Both Kuntawman and Illongo made valid points and with them being pilipino they understand how things are done in the philippines. You can`t go by hearsay as i stated in my previous post because as I said everyone will try and pass off there system off as being original without spanish influence. But again I restate that I am more than happy with the finished product whether it be truely pilipino or otherwise. With me it comes down to how effective the arts are not whether they are pure or not. Thanks for the comments guys.
~ Guro Dave Gould.

[ILONGGO]

dave,
i didn't mean to slam your comment when i responded. matter of fact, thanks for cleaning up some of the misunderstandings that somehow clouds up what FMA is all about. granted, i'm happy (jealous?) that you know more about our fighting culture than i do, as i've only practiced a splatter of techniques from what fma is supposed to be all about. i really kinda wished my grandpa would've taught me at least the basics before he passed away; but then again, i was only 8y.o. at that time. i did FMA thru jkd, which, if you're familiar with, is not actually what the whole FMA system is all about, rather just a basic idea of what it is. at that time when i was taking it, it woke up my cultural pride to the point where it prompted me to go back to the P.I. (which i haven't done for twenty years beforehand) and to see and learn more about it. just those three weeks and i learned a lot about my grandpa and what the art was all about from his point of view when he was alive. it explained some obscure things like how he would show me his balisong collections and would tape the blade and taught me various openings and closings with the provision that " i don't tell grandma". as a matter of fact, i have plans for next year to go back and visit, and recently, i just found out that his bastons are still around, and by god, i will have it back!

nowadays, there seems to be a lot of 'myth' that surrounds FMA, and nothing set me off more than anything else. i don't know where you stand on this, but one of the biggest thing around is the existence of dumog or kina mutai(kina-on putay, maybe?) as some sort of an indigenous art from the philippines. maybe it's all semantics, but just to hear some 'masters' claim that it is some sort of a badass form of pilipino wrestling or ancient art of eye gouging(huh?), it's just to much. FMA is fairly new here compared to the japanese or chinese art. i would prefer FMA to ploriferate thru what it can do in real life situation, sorta like speak thru its action, rather that being hyped up as some magical, invincible mumbo jumbo art as some people are lead to believe. if some 'master' has some sort of grappling included in his curriculum, most likely he learned jujitsu back in the motherland, as japanese art was popular in those early days. to come here (in the states) and claimed it was passed down from father to son crap, it really is bothersome; also that doesn't qualify as indigenous. now if he or she let the students know that he learned jujitsu as a kid or his dad did and decide to call it dumog and eventually passed it on to him, now that's a different story. like i said in my earlier post: i have kids, and i hope i don't have to clarify all these half truths to them when they grow up...

although there's an art that's fairly unknown here that i'm willing to part with the public: it 's called sampalan / sabunutan. the videos are coming out soon, so to those that are interested, please email me. the first fifty customers will get a free video on the fine art of dinu gu an (at puto)...

[incognito]

This is great!

This is great guys!

Thanks for all the input. I just wantd to get peoples perspectives on this topic. FMA base was rooted in combat as the Phillippines history dictates. I guess I'm interested in traditions that the the mandirigma (warriors) believed not so much for me to experience, but to have a deeper understanding of the art beyond pure combat. Religious rituals, music, etc.

Of course I am not saying that this is the basis for martial arts training, because we all train for different reasons, correct? My interest in FMA encompasses the exploration of the art form from abecedario to the healing aspects of hilot. It's takes a lifetime of exploration and hard work and with me being only 23 I just wanted to get some other more experienced and "wise" practitioners comments on the topic.

Thanks

[sikal]

Originally posted by ILONGGO
sikal, who was your instructor? are you familiar with steve hacht?

Absolutely, I know Guru Steve Hacht!!! He's my brother (martially speaking) :-)

We are both certified under Guru Ken Pannell in the art of Sikal (hence where I got my screen name in this forum :-) If Steve is the guy you have the opportunity to train with, I would say go for it. Steve is a great guy, and a damn fine martial artist and instructor. For FMA and/or Silat in Columbus, you won't find much better than him. Of course, I'm a little biased in this statement ... but I think it's also very accurate. I'm not very familiar with the FMA/IMA scene in Columbus. The only person I know there who teaches these at all is Tre Hockett. Tre is also a great guy ... but his focus is primarily on JKD (which he does very well, I might add). But if you want FMA/IMA in Columbus, I'd suggest Guru Steve since that's been his primary focus of training for the past 7 years.

If you're near Steve and you weren't at the workshop with Guru Ken on Sunday then you missed a good session and a good time :-) We had a blast and covered some really good material.

Anyway ... if you see Steve soon, say Hi for me (my name is Mike Casto).

Mike

[Balisong]

incognito,

Yes. There is wonderful Lameco class in Los Angeles that teaches history and techniques hand in hand, and they cost dirt cheap. You get way more than what you pay for.

If you live nearby I can give you details.

[incognito]

Thanks

Thanks, but currently I live in Charleston, SC and heading back home to Seattle, WA shortly. I'm looking forward to training!!

Peace