JFJKD Obsolete

[Monkey]

Re: Of course it could be

Sean,

I have a question, why is it that Bruce Lee's JKD was changing every day as he made new discoveries, yet if we are only training techniques considered to be original JKD, then...??? Has your JKD not become become dead, static, unchanging? Apparently you only teach and train what Bruce taught 30 years ago... I think if Bruce was still alive, he would be making use of every little piece of research, information and he would be intensely studying all the developments with other people that have been going on the last 30 years and would be changing his art as he saw fit. So I say to you, do justice to what he did and let your movements change scientifically regardless of whether Bruce did it that way or not. Not because some things may not work for one person and work for another, but because developments are being made and new information is always becoming available and so dont let your art become dead just because Bruce Lee is. You have the benefit of being alive now to incorporate as many changes into your art as you see fit, but you dont, because it wouldnt be the same as how Bruce was doing it back then because you ASSUME that was the best way and ASSUME that had he been alive that he would have made no changes. If your art dies, i.e. because it becomes static and unchanging, then the JKD philosophy is in vain. Why practice and teach JFJKD, as opposed to SMJKD...?? You see why it worries me? I just think that Bruce would want you to make your own developments to keep your art alive and continue on what he started.

[Twisted up]

was it EVER effective, should be the question!

The idea that JF/JKD is effective is a subjective one don't you think?


How does anyone know if something is effective or not until one "uses" it?

People automatically assume that JF/JKD is effective just because "Bruce Lee used it and said......"

It worked for Bruce Lee! Of course.....how many REAL fights did Lee have in the US that we're street fights? Does anyone have an estimate, or are you going to "just guess"?

Most of what I've seen in JF/JKD stops working as soon as the opponent is allowed to HIT BACK! Meaning that the partner is no longer COOPERATING. This seems to be especially true with regard to TRAPPING!


The problem is, most people have become Bruce Lee groupies and simply try to do everything that HE did spouting forth such rhetoric as "Well, Lee did it so it MUST be effective".

JKD isn't about what "Lee did" however! It's about what YOU can do! Are you as fast as Lee? As agile? Are you beginning to see my point?

Everything evolves. If Lee were alive today, he'd have evolved as well. Jun Fan hasn't however......


John

[BIG Sean Madigan]

Hi Monkey,

Wow, you make a few assumptions as to my training and teaching methodology, and yet, I don't remember having trained with you. Why would you assume that I 'only' teach/train in original material? Have you looked at my website?

Here is a picture from my site:

Now, I ask you, does that look like I only train in Original JKD?

I love OJKD, I train in it all the time. I teach it and find it's lessons very valuable. In fact, one of the major reasons that I train in it so much is so that I can learn to use its lessons to help me learn how to deal with all areas of combat.

You wrote "You have the benefit of being alive now to incorporate as many changes into your art as you see fit, but you dont".

How can you say this about a person that you've never met? Oh, and by the way, you are wrong.

You also wrote: "Why practice and teach JFJKD, as opposed to SMJKD"

That's exactly what I do, but instead of calling it SMJKD, I call it "BIG JKD. If you even bothered to look at my site, you would have realized that.

So, don't you think you should get to know a person BEFORE you make assumptions about him/her?

Thanks,

BIG Sean Madigan

[strblast]

JFJKD Obsolete?

Hi everyone,

That's eactly what I meant, is Jun Fan JKD still effective nowadays? I have little doubt that Bruce Lee could very well execute his techniques (JFJKD) effectively with incredible results, but are they (JFJKD) still relevent with the styles of combat nowadays?

I'm not putting down JKD because as we all know JKD are just tools and concepts for combat. But JFJKD are only the techniques that were originally taught by Lee himself.

In my opinion it's ok to teach JFJKD as one of the curriculum but to base JKD on JFJKD alone I think is limiting yourself.

What about the concepts of JKD, do we challenge those as well in order to grow or do we simply hold it as the Gospel Truth?

[thekuntawman]

amin (amen), twisted up!

[Ern-Dog]

I once posted this on another forum, but I think it also applies to this line of Q & A. I choose to think (my opinion, I'm not trying to say this is scripture) that Jun Fan Gung Fu can be looked at as being a "car", while Jeet Kune Do is the "journey" that you're on. Without the mode of transportation, how will you get started on your journey. They are two sides to the same coin. Just a thought.

[Monkey]

Originally posted by Ern-Dog
I once posted this on another forum, but I think it also applies to this line of Q & A. I choose to think (my opinion, I'm not trying to say this is scripture) that Jun Fan Gung Fu can be looked at as being a "car", while Jeet Kune Do is the "journey" that you're on. Without the mode of transportation, how will you get started on your journey. They are two sides to the same coin. Just a thought.

Yes, and a very silly thought. Why dont you go write a poem or something, no offence. Honestly, where does making analogies between motor transport and martial arts get you?? What a waste of time. I hate it when people try to make analogies or general statements about something which can really only be talked about in specifics. Because analogies are often very limited in the way it relates to what you are talking about.

"In my opinion it's ok to teach JFJKD as one of the curriculum but to base JKD on JFJKD alone I think is limiting yourself.

What about the concepts of JKD, do we challenge those as well in order to grow or do we simply hold it as the Gospel Truth?"

And that is a much more important and relevant idea and something JKD people dont like to think about, but should.

Im going to make some arguments in this post but most of what Im going to say is already in the one on the last bit of page one.

Anyway, Sean, I am sorry for saying all that stuff I had no right to say, I was talking shit mostly.

Dont get me wrong I would try to get u to train me, if it wasnt the fact that I live like 20000 miles away, in Australia.

Anyway, it just irks me, all the time. I cant help it. I have to speak my mind. Im very passionate about this stuff. People talk about Jun Fan Gung Fu this, Original JKD that, Jun Fan JKD, this and that, this and that. I think that its so far off what Bruce was trying to say that we have totally missed what he was trying to do with JKD.

He said the worst thing about STYLES, was that they separated people, put them in separate families, people who all wanted the same goal and so should all be in the same family.

Fighting should be seen as a science, yet in no other branch of science is there so much squabbling and disagreement and BULLSHIT between the scientists of that area. To be honest, there is a lack of a scientific approach.

Sometimes I think for most people martial arts is more like religion, involving faith in 'the' style, rather than science, involving uncompromising search for the truth.

But then Ive already gone on about that in my last post, I believe. But its very important to this topic.

As I understand it, OJKD is Bruce Lee's original 'flavour' of JKD, his own fighting method, or approximation thereof. So, Bruce Lee is dead, therefore that method is, because from the day he died to eternity, it will not change or be developed because the assumption is made that it is the best way. Not to say that there is not a great deal to be learnt from Lee's method, but to teach it as it was, to pertpetuate it exactly? Doesnt that make the assumption that it was perfect as it was? How do you know that he wouldnt have been overhauling it as he made discoveries, just like he did with his style of Wing Chun. He wouldnt have wanted it that way, I feel. But then nothing I can say will ever change your mind about the way you think about martial arts, because you hold these ideas very strongly and have made up your mind long ago.

Anyway, I just think that JKD is not something that can be TAUGHT. JKD is what it is and people have to do their own research. Once they have reached that stage, they dont need JKD because it was for cleaning up a mess.

So teaching JFJKD or BIG JKD or OJKD or JFGF is great, cool, good, but.... and here's the big point, I dont think that its ever going to be JKD as far as what the founder had in mind.

I have my own little analogy here, so Im being hypocritical. But what the hell, if you've read this far...

Say there is a big piece of paper. Say, there is a billion or so little dots on the page, each one representing a possible technique. Now, to teach martial arts, a system draws a circle on the page. Some techniques are in the circle, they are part of that original system. The other techniques are excluded. Why do we have to group techniques together into systems, methods, styles, flavours, families, by drawing a circle on the page? I think JKD states that there should be no circle, no boundary, because that creates limitations.
The page should just be taken as it is, and dots should be looked at on an individual basis. This one is good, this one is shit, this one is ok but I can make it better, etc, rather than saying this one is inside the circle, i.e. this one is 'original', this one is outside the circle, it's not 'original', therefore I dont teach or train it.

To me it seems much JKD is taught as drawing multiple circles as opposed to one. I.e. JKD = JFGF + JFJKD + FMA + whatever. I.e it is what Bruce Lee did or what Dan Inosanto did or even what Bruce Lee did earlier but then discarded, but people still train it because Bruce Lee's name it attached to it. Totally missing the entire point, not only missing the point but going in the opposite direction and if Bruce were alive he would be furious with the way people use his name to make millions for themselves because they happened to train with him.

Whereas to me, JKD is a guiding set of principles and philosophies for one's fighting method and training method, not something that can be taught as technique.
You can't look at a technique and say this is from original JKD, I'll use this, and look at another and say that is not from orinigal JKD, I won't use that. I think you can use JKD as a means of looking at two techniques and seeing the advantages and disadvantages and possibly even saying that they both have their uses, i.e. to see them as they are, in their suchness, regardless of who concieved them or where they came from or what 'system' they 'belong' to, or whatever!!!!!!

I dont know how much of this applies to anybody reading it but for ****'s sake can you see what the **** I am saying????????????

THANKYOU

PEACE

[thekuntawman]

with so many versions of jkd, do you think we now have many "styles" of jeet kune do?

[Ern-Dog]

Good points

Assumptions, Assumptions, Assumptions. (I don't know you Big Sean Madigan but already we have a connection). First you make assumptions about Big Sean and now you make assumptions about Big Ern. Sorry Sean I couldn't resist.

Monkey I see exactly what you're saying without making any assumptions about you, a courtesy that you chose not to give me. Fine. I could have assumed that since you attacked my post right off the bat by calling my thoughts "silly" and telling me to go "write a poem" and then saying NO OFFENCE, that you just like to push peoples buttons but I didn't. I could assume that you think Guru Dan Inosanto needs to go try out his poetry skills and quit the analogies because it's a "waste of time" since it's his quote that I posted ( I forgot to attach a bibliography ). He uses them a lot to explain concepts during seminars (usually comparing football or other sports to martial arts).

You complain that "..in no other branch of science is there so much squabbling and disagreement and BULLSHIT..." when speaking about the state of JKD today. Yet it's posts like yours that attack people which stir the pot, and continue the bickering.

Just to clear the air, I train a JKD concepts approach. Before all the OJKDers start roasting me let me say this. I also believe that OJKD can be all that an individual ever needs, that individual just doesn't happen to be me. If you had bothered to read my profile, monkey, you'd know that. I think that it's up to individual to determine what their process of JKD is. Because that’s exactly what it is, a process and not a product.

JFGF/OJKD has the basic STRUCTURE that the practitioner must utilize. I'm not saying that the individual can't make subtle changes to make it more "them." Look at it this way. By what you're saying, monkey, a shotokan practitioner can use his/her basic structure and then take a JKD approach or philosophy to their training by studying other arts etc. etc. and that shotokan practitioner is now a JKD fighter. I don't think so. Like I said before you must have a basic structure, or beginning point, or "car" if you will, before you can begin your process, your JKD, or your "journey". I believe that you must base your JKD with the foundation and structure that is OJKD (SPBKS, elbows tight, rear foot raised, etc.) but then break out and explore different things and find what works best for you.

I agree with you JKD cannot be taught. The instructor can only GUIDE you, the individual chooses the path.

I choose to train in a lot of areas because I believe that you can learn SOMETHING from just about anybody. I'll go out on a limb and say that I could learn a thing from you (monkey) and you could learn a thing or two from me. No one person has a monopoly on knowledge, just when I think I've seen it all, my instructor or Guru Inosanto will say something or introduce a concept that opens a new door to a new line of thinking.

What I'm trying to say is the same thing Big Sean said earlier. Don't make assumptions about a person before you get to know them. I would hope that you would try to refrain from attacking people on this forum, until you know exactly where they stand. You're 0 for 2 when it comes to assumptions. Try asking.

Oh, and when using an analogy, try to make the analogy short and to the point. Just a tip.

[HungryWolf21]

Monkey

I may not agree with everything you say, or how you go about saying it, but I really like and agree with the points that you brought up on your post. Great analogy (lol). In my mind, JKD is not JKD. Rather, JKD is the individual and their truths.

Let's not argue over what JKD is (I can just smell the hipocriscy), let's just seek out experience through training and life itself.

[strblast]

Hi everyone,

Hey look, lets not argue over what is JKD. All I asked was is JFJKD (Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do) still effective today? I mean, lets not be over-protective over what Bruce Lee developed for himself. Yes, himself, Bruce inctended JFJKD to be his expression of martial arts and we are merely re-learning what he has discovered.

Can we, like rational adults, discuss in reality whether the techniques in JFJKD are realistic and effective for today.

Earlier in the post, someone mentioned that trapping are not that very effective. Lets discuss on stuff like that rather on arguing on what is JKD. We all know what JKD is; tools and concepts recognized/discovered by Bruce Lee. No one will ever try to take that away. JKD had always been and always will be Bruce Lee's art for the martial art community.

Since everyone has been quoting Lee's teachings, I guess I should do the same. Lee said that in order to express yourself in martial art you should be truthful and honest to yourself. And that is JKD, being honest and truthful, discovering the truth of techniques on a personal level. Not simply acquiring and accepting other people's words or teachings without first testing it out for oneself.

So again, can we just discuss about the techniques in JFJKD and the concepts in JKD in order to discover the truth for ourselves.

p/s: stop quoting from the Tao Of JKD, everyone already has a copy.

[sikal]

Originally posted by strblast

Earlier in the post, someone mentioned that trapping are not that very effective. Lets discuss on stuff like that rather on arguing on what is JKD. We all know what JKD is; tools and concepts recognized/discovered by Bruce Lee. No one will ever try to take that away. JKD had always been and always will be Bruce Lee's art for the martial art community.

Good statement, strblast.

The original quote you're referring to in this thread (I think) is from Twisted Up and it was:

"Most of what I've seen in JF/JKD stops working as soon as the opponent is allowed to HIT BACK! Meaning that the partner is no longer COOPERATING. This seems to be especially true with regard to TRAPPING!"

I think Twisted made some very valid points in the rest of his post ... but I (personally) disagree with this particular paragraph.

I, for one, though, have found trapping to be very useful and to work fine when my opponent is uncooperative and allowed to hit back (i.e.: in sparring). I have used it a lot in sparring and it works fine. I have used it in real life and it worked fine.

I think that a trap that a lot of people (at least ones that I've had similar discussions with) fall into is that they think trapping means only the "classical" traps. Are you likely to get a pretty Pak Sao / Lap Sao combo in reality, probably not. However, I have gotten a nearly "classical" Lap Sao / Lap Sao several times in sparring.

However, when you start thinking of trapping as more (or less ... depending on how you look at it) than just the "classical" techniques, it opens up a much broader spectrum ... and from this spectrum are the ones that I've primarily used in sparring or altercations.

Before I go further, let me say that I'm not a JFJKD guy at all. I'm familiar with its major principles (i.e.: methods of attack, ranges, etc.) and some of its drills/terminology. My actual understanding of trapping, though, comes from FMA ... I don't know that this makes a difference ... but that's where I'm coming from, FWIW.

Trapping, IMHO, is simply obstacle removal and temporary limb immobilization. If I step on a guy's foot while I hit him (which I do *a lot* ... all my training partners think I've got a foot fetish :-), then that is a trap. If I grab his shirt sleeve and pin his arm to his ribcage, that is a trap. If his hand gets tangled up in my jacket and I hit him a couple of times, that is a trap (albeit completely unintentional on my part). All it is is a method of opening a gate so I can land a 2 (or 3 if I'm lucky or good that day) decent shots before he manages to disengage and/or re-orient himself.

I can only speak for myself ... but for me, trapping has worked more times than I can count in sparring and several times in fights over the years. It's also helped me out in countless types of more mundane situations (i.e.: preventing a guy from accidentally elbowing me as he turned around by pinning his elbow into his ribs and mumbling "Oops, excuse me" as I moved past :-)

Regards, Mike

[strblast]

on trapping

Hi everyone,

From what I understand from JKD (Wing Chun) trappings, it is only meant to immobilize the opponent for about a split second to create an opening for an attack.

Sometimes when I spar, it's quite hard to trap my opponent with those classical trappings especially when the other guy is pulling away and not cooperating. But I find the pak sao and lop sao most effective when I'm concentrating on creating an opening and not on trapping the opponents arms/hands.

In close range, I find that elbow blows are most effective as "killing" tools, after a successful trap of course.

Does JKD values locking? Since it's principles has always been to "eliminate" your opponent as quick as possible. Care to comment anyone?

[Monkey]

keymon

Erndog -> Sorry.

Look, as I understand it, Bruce Lee closed his schools and expressly forbid his students like Dan Inosanto from teaching, before he died. He made them promise that they would not teach anybody and they agreed.

Now, as Dan Inosanto is qualified under Bruce Lee in things like Jun Fan Gung Fu etc, even though Bruce, as I understand it, discarded any sort of stylistic aspects to his training, which is what Jun Fan Gung Fu is. But the certification remains even though Bruce got rid of that type of shit later on, right? (I could be wrong)

So, Dan Inosanto, Mr Nobody 1973, is an instant millionaire because Bruce dies and becomes a superstar, everybody wants to learn Bruce Lee style martial arts, who do they come to? What's he gonna say, no? Of course not.

So its one thing to KEEP IN MIND, that's all. They stand to profit by AFFILIATING Jun Fan Gung Fu with JKD, and they are free to incorporate whatever FMA they want despite the opinion JKD has towards that sort of thinking.

JKD has nothing to do with Jun Fan Gung Fu or Filipino martial arts but the people who have been teaching JKD after Bruce died TEACH this as part and parcel, because they could do whatever they wanted after Bruce died.

[sikal]

Re: keymon

Originally posted by Monkey
Erndog -> Sorry.

Look, as I understand it, Bruce Lee closed his schools and expressly forbid his students like Dan Inosanto from teaching, before he died. He made them promise that they would not teach anybody and they agreed.

Now, as Dan Inosanto is qualified under Bruce Lee in things like Jun Fan Gung Fu etc, even though Bruce, as I understand it, discarded any sort of stylistic aspects to his training, which is what Jun Fan Gung Fu is. But the certification remains even though Bruce got rid of that type of shit later on, right? (I could be wrong)

As I understand it, Dan was told not to teach specific things ... but he forbidden to teach JF in general.

So, Dan Inosanto, Mr Nobody 1973, is an instant millionaire because Bruce dies and becomes a superstar, everybody wants to learn Bruce Lee style martial arts, who do they come to? What's he gonna say, no? Of course not.

Well, I wouldn't say he was a nobody in '73. He was a "somebody" before he ever met Bruce. He was a black belt under Ed Parker and was already highly respected in some martial arts circles.

So its one thing to KEEP IN MIND, that's all. They stand to profit by AFFILIATING Jun Fan Gung Fu with JKD, and they are free to incorporate whatever FMA they want despite the opinion JKD has towards that sort of thinking.

JKD has nothing to do with Jun Fan Gung Fu or Filipino martial arts but the people who have been teaching JKD after Bruce died TEACH this as part and parcel, because they could do whatever they wanted after Bruce died.

I've never heard Dan or Richard Bustillo (the only two original Bruce students that I've personally spent any time around) say that FMA have anything to do with JKD. It's just something that they enjoy and feel is useful and so they teach it ... but not as part of JKD.

As far as Jun Fan having nothing to do with JKD ... huh? Jun Fan is the technical foundation upon which the JKD (personal understand/expression) is built.

Without Jun Fan, you would have to use something else to develop the fundamentals.

JKD isn't something that can be taught ... except in a very theoretical sense ... and theory won't win a fight (which was, from what I understand, the bottom line of Bruce's goal ... being able to fight well). You've got to have some sort of physical platform to use as canvass before you can paint your personal JKD expression on it. Jun Fan is that physical platform.

From reading Bruce's notes and writings, I don't think he had any problems with structured training (in fact, I think he was all about structured straining ... he was fanatical and practically regimental about his own training and expected others to at least try to keep up). I think the problem he had (and what he was trying to solve) with the structured training is that people get so caught up in the structure that they forget why they were training to begin with.

I do think that there are problems in the JKD community and that there are a lot of people who misunderstand and/or misrepresent JKD. I don't think that any of Bruce's original students are doing this. I think that they each have their own understanding and expression (the goal of JKD, after all) and that some of their students are misinterpreting this ... and then when they go out, they propogate their misunderstanding.

I do recall reading that Bruce never wanted the JKD name used commercially. Originally, none of his students did this (i.e.: after his death, none of his students publicly taught JKD ... they taught to small private groups). Then other people (who had no connection to Bruce) started teaching "JKD" and cashing in on the name. From what I understand, Dan (and some others) decided that if the name JKD was going to be used, then they may as well make sure that some real JKD was being taught ... at least that's the impression I've gotten (I wasn't there so this is pure conjecture ... as is a lot of what goes on out here surrounding these events).

Regards, Mike