"the ground is the last place you want to be in a real fight!"

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Looking for some good opinions here.
It seems after the success of a lot of NHB tournaments, you hear a lot of people saying "The ground is the LAST place you want to be in a real fight!"
Now, granted the ground is probably one of the most dangerous places to be, but do you think the majority of people who yell this out all the time are people who really don't know how to fight on the ground? Hence it is the last place they want to be?
It is obvious that multiple opponents and weapons happen in the street, but it is also just as common for there to be only one on one fights and have people crowd around, etc. In fact most of the fights I've seen and been in have really only been one on one. Ocassionally there has been two on one, or three on one, but there have been a good number that stayed one on one as well.
Cross training is obviously the key. It's good to have some good hands, good takedown defenses, and good ability to get the top position in a ground fight.
But......do you think fighting from the ground in a streetfight is always so terrible? Or do you think the statement "the ground is the last place you want to fight on the street!" is becoming a fallacy?

Ryu

[Roy Gaflaer]

I think alot of times in the streets for the average person fights will be one on one. At Gracie Torrance they teach weapon disarming also, so I would say going to the ground with GJJ knowledge would be beneficial in the street. Now if you're the type of person that frequents bars and clubs, I don't think going to the ground would be such a wise idea.

[gibby264]

I am the last person to really asnswer about ground fighting since I am just learing that game. I think you need to have skills in all ranges. But I would aslo add the enviorment makes a difference also. I would not really want to be in a ground fight in gravel, or glass, or anything like that. (but that is also were a person can easily slip too)

For me, (not knowing a lot yet) I would not want to be on the ground, but I want to know how defend and understand the ground game too, so if I end up there, I have some idea of what to do.

[HOWARD KIMONOS]

To be able survive on the ground you need to transition to the ground properly. You just can't end up there without a clue of your whereabouts and start applying your "deadly ground" game.

You have to be well rounded. Pure ground skill with a crappy knowledge of getting there will not cut it.

[JaredExtreme]

I think you're right Ryu.

When I was taking McDojo Karate in the late 90's one night our Sensei was giving one of his weekly speeches to the class. This one was concerning BJJ/ground fighting. He quoted the stat the Gracies use, "90% of fights end up on the ground" and then proceeded to tell us that groundfighting could be negated by proper defenses. Certianly this is true (Silva) except that HE NEVER TAUGHT US ANY. We never learned any sprawling or takedown defenses. So I definetly agree that most people who try to downplay groundfighting are usually inexperienced in it.

[Szczepankiewicz]

The Earth is my friend.

This is a good thread.... I'll try not to spoil it.


We practice getting to the ground, being on the ground, and getting up from the ground. All of these are just as vital as being able to strike and grapple.

One of our primary rules is "when stuff get's crazy, go to the ground." This really depends on the situation, but it is a highly effective low level self defense move. When the bad guy is trying to haul you off or throw you around, go to the ground on your own terms, change the tempo, and present a whole new problem for the bad guy. I had 3 guys at a Pantera concert trying to remove me from my front row rail position. I didn't want to go anywhere, so I didn't.

My instructor can be thrown by anybody in just about any throw on just about any surface and come out ok (i.e. not dead ). He has been practicing landing (Ukemi waza) in Judo and Jujutsu for about 20 years. It's in going with the flow and knowing how to land. He's the easiest guy in the world to throw when he wants to be, and very difficult to throw when he doesn't...

Back to my point..... the Earth is my friend. I don't mind being thrown around or having a wrestler or judoka throw me because I can land safely (most of the time). I get there on my own terms (if I can) and try to get the heck back up and run away if I can.

If in a fight (and I haven't fought since jr. high) you can go to the ground or if they want to take it to the ground, then go ahead. Take it to the ground, do serious damage, and get back up. If you're on the ground for more than twenty seconds (for example) and you're at a stalemate situation, you have to change the tempo again.

Going to the ground and staying in the guard is like standing still in a boxing match.

In sport, you can go to the ground and stay there. In a fight you can go to the ground, but you shouldn't stay there for long.

What are your thoughts?

SZ

[SweepEm]

I've seen lots of street fights and no two are alike.

There are some mob fights, many opponents on one and just the usual one on one.

There are the dreamers that ask fantasy questions like if you could choose only one martial art...etc.

I view Martial arts as self defense skills and that at each situation, there is an appropriate way to utilize these skills just like you would use a tool for a specific purpose.
An unskilled worker won't be efficent and may not get the job done correctly.

A majority of the fights I've seen is what Rorion Gracie said, a majority of the fights do end up on the ground, with guys wrestling each other.

I believe that in order to defend yourself, you need skills for a stand up and also a ground type self defense too.

Your best defense is the ability to diffuse a heated situation where neither side escalates the confrontation where one side loses their rationale.
It' always best just to walk away.

If only every martial arts teacher can teach their students to learn this. But many students take martial arts to be able to pick a fight and be the superior aggressor.

Fabio Santos once told our class that after about 6 months of training, you should be able to defeat 80-90% of the people you would encounter in a street confrontation.

Many people just don't know how to fight but think they do.

[MercuryTurrent]

Sweep: how much would MR. Santos make in 6 months?

i think we should look at this in a certain way (just for a change): the person you're fighting is bigger then you, has a good punch, and doesn't care about hanging on to you, just hitting you. its hard to find a take-down you can use to avoid him hitting you. its still possible, not matter how much you know- to get hit trying to take someone down. and what happens if you get scratched up on the ground? or slip your hold, allowing him to get on top? dont deny it- even in the UFC, things like this happen; people slip up, and the other guy quickly pummels him, or choked him. it happens in a real fight too.
in real fights, i feel it is far safer to stay away from your ground game. if you have a MMA background, some of you instincts might be to pull a few take-downs and such. i'd say stay away from them- from experience. the last two fights i've been into, my instincts to take it to the ground almost costed me the fight (and my skills aren't that bad. i've been in wrestling for 6 years, and crosstrained with sambo and jiujitsu for 2). your average joe smo might consider himself a good boxer, but all he may be is a good hit.
im not saying that taking it to the ground is a bad idea, but i AM saying that not admitting that its possible for you to slip is very ignorent.
besides, if you do take a standing martial art (i have kickboxing, taekwondo, and karate under my belt), then you'll be able to fight standing well enough to take the guy out. besides, chances are he isn't gonna tackle you (thenagain, if he is, just throw out yer mad skillz ). every street kid i EVER went against couldn't fight a martial artist (or at least one that knew how to "dance") if his life depended on it.

[SweepEm]

Originally posted by MercuryTurrent
Sweep: how much would MR. Santos make in 6 months?

I am not sure what you mean by your question.

Are you asking how much he charges for his classes?

[Roy Gaflaer]

like you know anything about real fighting.

[MercuryTurrent]

yeah. sarcasticly. maybe he's just saying that because he wants that money? im not saying your sensei is crooked, just saying he's most likely stretching the truth.

[Flash]

According to Rickson Gracie...

Wasn't Rickson Gracie quoted as saying that you should NOT go to the ground in a street fight? This from a man who is an undisputed expert in the ground game.

My reasons for learning how to fight on the ground is due to Murphy's Law - I may not want to go there, but I still may end up there. I get annoyed when I hear people say: "Well, I just won't let myself get taken down." (yeah, right - that's like saying, I won't let myself get punched in the head) as much as I do when I hear people say: "Ground grappling is the BEST." (if the fight goes bad, you can always try to escape and evade when you're on your feet - that option isn't always a possibility if you're on the ground).

[MercuryTurrent]

see? someone does so the light!

[Szczepankiewicz]

Is there any reliable statistical data that supports all the claims of such and such a percentage of 'fights' that go to the ground in the 'real world'?

[MercuryTurrent]

most likely no, but every single fight i've ever been in eventually went to the ground. besides, its impossible to come up wiyh a percentage anyway.