UFC rules?

[chris davis 200]

Hi ppl,

Here are the UFC rules:

Fouls:
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.


And there are so many people here that think UFC are as real as it gets!

Come off it people.

everyone goes on about why you dont see this style / that style in the ring. these rules favour BJJ and MT.

Striking to the back of the head/ spine is a stapple of ba gua, they are some of the things that make it SO effective.

According to these rules, many martial arts are made non applicable to this COMPETITION. this may well be the reason that you dont see many single styles.

Styles such as fukien white crane focus on eye strikes, throat strikes and groin strikes - oh well there go their best weapons!

Anyways, I was just stunned by this list, especially after having heard numerous arguments about how REAL UFC and MMA competition is.

cheers
Chris

[Tom Yum]

The UFC is a combat sport with fewer rules than than its predecessors (i.e. boxing, wrestling, judo). It is pretty realistic because it allows stylists to execute their moves without calling a foul but any move that can damage your ability to function in the future (eye gouge) or possibly maim (throat strikes) are excluded. Afterall its not life or death; its a competitive sport that tests your skills in exchange for possible fame, success and cash. Its too bad that aikido doesn't compete. I know it is against the philosophy of the art, but practicing it against a competitve & resisting opponent would do wonders for the art.

I guess there is a reason why you should keep your chin tucked and hands up.

[Tom Yum]

The UFC is a combat sport with fewer rules than than its predecessors (i.e. boxing, wrestling, judo). It is pretty realistic because it allows stylists to execute their moves without calling a foul but any move that can damage your ability to function in the future (eye gouge) or possibly maim (throat strikes) are excluded. Afterall its not life or death; its a competitive sport that tests your skills in exchange for possible fame, success and cash. Its too bad that aikido doesn't compete. I know it is against the philosophy of the art, but practicing it against a competitve & resisting opponent would do wonders for the art.

Old-school muay thai strikes to the back of the neck and collar bones with elbows. The ring sport doesn't do this for obvious reasons.

In the 1970's a group of Chinese gong fu masters went to Thailand to fight against competitve Thai boxers. All of the gong fu masters were brutally beaten and/or KO'd. Nearly 20 years later, the Chinese art of San Shou/San da appeared. It is allmost identical to muay thai; except that they throw the side-kick and allow take downs from the clinch. In addition in the early days just before the UFC, many gong fu masters challenged the Gracies and lost because they were helpless on the ground. See for yourself - its called the Gracie Challenge - it appeared in a small advert in Black Belt magazine in the early 90's.

Not to say that Chinese arts are ineffective, but traditional Chinese MA needs modern approaches. Give your students goggles and padded scarves and go at it with finger jabs and throat strikes. Better yet, make these devices have electronic sensors so you can see who landed first.

[Lizard]

That is a really good idea. It would allow people to throw ANY technique. I would have a system so that if you hit the eyes/throat/groin area it gives some kind of reward such as mega points, an instant win or perhaps even give your opponent an electric shock for a certain amount of time. You would end up with people on the floor unable to defend themselves while the white crane gong fu master calmly keeps poking the eye area at regular intervals. That would be worth seeing. Oh and Tom Yum I printed your advice for boxing punches. I've seen an improvement already.

[chris davis 200]

i am not saying that these strikes should be included in that would be silly

and i totally agree that there are rules there for a reason.

But what i AM saying is that for all of the people that think UFC IS the Ultimate. It isnt.

the matches you are refering to 70's refer to a challenge against some gong fu pratitioners.

In September 1974 in Malaysia there were four matches between Muay Thai fighters from Thailand and local Chinese martial arts fighters. The result was a draw. The Muay Thai fighters won two matches and the Chinese fighters won two matches. Tan Guangcheng, one of the victorious Chinese fighters, was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang" because of his victory. Tan was later challenged by another Muay Thai fighter and fought him to a draw. However, this match was fought under Muay Thai rules and Tan was prohibited from throwing.

these matches were between mediocre 'local' gong fu practitioners and proffessional muay thai fighters. they were also conducted under Muay thai rules, with grappling excluded.

If you were to put non - proffessional MT fighters against these same chinese fighters i am quite confident that the result would have been different.

San Soo is not a new thing as many MT people would have you believe. It is however only recentley categorised as a proffessional chinese sport. the art of san soo has been used in many chinese systems, especially the shaolin systems and hsing i.

In Hong Kong, some of the most successful Chinese martial arts fighters have been trained by Sifu Chan Sau Chung. Sifu Chan is the leader of the Dai Sing Pek Gwa system, also known as "monkey style" kung fu. Sifu Chan's fighters have had remarkable success in open fighting, especially considering all were amateur, part time fighters. In November 1981 in another challenge match, Chen Zhaojia KO'd former Thailand stadium champion "Montong" with a throw.

The sad irony of the situation has been that as San Shou (i.e. the application of Chinese martial arts for the ring) has grown and developed, especially in mainland China where there are now full time programs for professional fighters, there have been less and less of these matches. The IWUF is intent upon putting San Shou in the Olympics and sees Muay Thai as its primary rival. Perhaps for these reasons it has not done more to promote matches between the two styles. At the same time, Thailand has been equally adamant about not accepting matches that are not fought under full Muay Thai rules.

This post was not designed to slate MT i think it is a brutle and hugely effective fighting art. But it is far from the be all and end all!

This thread is about UFC and about the rules that limit the arsenal of many arts from Indonisia, china, japan and malaysia.

the rules involved in UFC favour the MT and BJJ practitioner, they would be the obvious choice for someone wishing to compete, so when people say ' why dont the UFC people train in such and such . ...' ' because it doesnt work' etc etc etc. It may not be relevant for the UFC sporting format but that does not mean that it Doesnt work period.

cheers
Chris

[Lost Ronin]

Chris Davis has made a point that is known to almost all intelligent MMA fans, the UFC isn't the "ultimate" reality in combat. We all know that, now, I have to say, that the UFC is as real as it can get when it comes to moral and legal issues. I'm not putting anybody down but the reason that you don't see traditional styles such as Bagua or Gong Fu in MMA competition is simply because the styles do not train against progressive resistance (i.e. sparring, or pulling off techniques against somebody who is not standing there like a practice dummy) Muay Thai Kickboxers, Wrestlers, BJJ guys, Boxers, they train against a resisting opponent from day one, that is why they are the predominant styles in the UFC, or any other fight competition for that manner. I honestly think that simply saying that you can't compete with your style because it focuses on too many "deadly" techniques is an excuse, let's think about this, if I can knock you out when we have rules (i.e. in a competitive environment) what makes you think that I'm not gonna be able to do the same thing or worse in a no-holds-barred streetfight? Sure, I have more things to watch out for, but overall, I would possess the same athletic attributes that give me an edge in competition ( My cardio, footwork, distancing, combinations, etc.) So honestly, the UFC is as real as it gets, or do you suggest we do some of those partner drills or "walking the circle" drills that Bagua does? The traditional arts train in really unrealistic ways, I can't think of a better way to train than MMA. This is not an attack, just my opinion.

[chris davis 200]

I'm not putting anybody down but the reason that you don't see traditional styles such as Bagua or Gong Fu in MMA competition is simply because the styles do not train against progressive resistance

There really is this opinion of traditional arts around here. I dont know where you are getting this information from?? Maybe you see some mcdojo stuff on the net somewhere and assume that all traditional arts train in that way.

Lets take ba gua as it has been mentioned. You will learn circle walking - this teaches you the theory of continuous movement and rapid changes of direction, once this ability is reached it is very difficult to hit a ba gua person. If they are never on your fighting line they are hard to hit (unlike MT,BJJ,Karate etc who are nearly always on your fighting line). Think about it.

after/ during circle walking practice you do applications from set attacks, these can be knees, elbows, shoulder barges, ALL maner of punches and kicks, including roundhouses, hooks and jabs (these moves are not exclusive to MT/ boxing!)

Once these basics are down, you progress to rou shou or soft hands, this is kind of like the pushing hands of Tai chi but with constant movement. This teaches you to read the movement of the opponent and sensitivity.

This then evolves to FREE FIGHTING / san sho taking multiple random attacks from multiple determined opponent using, knees, elbows, kicks, punches, throws, takedowns etc!

This way of doing things is more progressive than the MT way of just jump right in there and it produces a more solid base to work from.

I honestly think that simply saying that you can't compete with your style because it focuses on too many "deadly" techniques is an excuse, let's think about this, if I can knock you out when we have rules (i.e. in a competitive environment) what makes you think that I'm not gonna be able to do the same thing or worse in a no-holds-barred streetfight?

I am not saying that these are 'deadly moves'. or that it is superior - mainly what i am saying is that for ba gua and many other stye they would have to adapt to a more kickboxing / wrestling format to fight in these COMPETITIONS.

and before you say that is why they are not effective! Ba gua masters have defeated many many external styles in no rules contests. As always i quote Wang shu jin who took challanges from ANYONE that wanted to challange him, he was undefeated.

They must have something about them!

As for a serious street fight using internal chinese arts & aiki arts. I have done this on many many occations. as head doorman in one of the roughest clubs in gloucestershire (now closed due to violence) and being only 5'10 and 13 stone. I feel that if i had used MT or BJJ i would have been killed. I worked with a number of thai boxers/kick boxers and they got hit alot more than i did. Standing there to slug it out with someone twice your size WONT WORK! why do you think there are weight catagories in both UFC and MT competitions, because they are ineffective against larger opponents perhaps??

Again not to slate anyone or any style, just some thoughts.

Cheers
Chris

[Guest]

Find the style that traines the techniques that are against the rules. Call it Combatives.

Sorry, someone has already done that.

ps - it doesn't look like some kind of posing Kung Fu nonsense either.

[Tom Yum]

Didn't Don Frye KO some Ba gua quan practicioner in one of the UFC's? It was held in Puerto Rico. Don Frye had golden gloves experience and wrestling.

The ba gua guy had over 300 NHB fights, all of them wins. Not to mention the guy was 140+ kilos. Don Frye Ko'd him with a right cross early in the 1st round. I guess its the fighter, not the style that determines victory.

[chris davis 200]

quite interesting.

What was the Ba gua guys name - i assume you are refering to UFC 8?

would like to hear more of this match.

cheers for the info!

Will do some investigation.

i agree with you in that, as with all fights i think that the competancy of a fighter comes down to 'the fighter' not necisarily the art that he/she is trained in.

Cheers
chris

[Lost Ronin]

Chris Davis has made some good replies that lead me to believe that he is an intelligent martial artist. It seems to me that you are the kind of person that is constantly trying to upgrade your fighting, that is what I am, but let me explain why I said what I said about the traditional arts. My opinions of the traditional styles are not based on me going to watch a McDojo practice, or me beating the stuffing out of some "master". I myself practiced the traditional arts for a while, under the guidance of some very good instructors, not con-men. I agree that some of my opinions are based on a few practicioners of the arts that I have observed, but I think this misconception also spreads to styles like MT or Karate. A good MT fighter that engages in a real fight won't stand there and slug it out with you, or try to clinch with you and trade knees (I would only do that if it was tactically beneficial for me.) I know plenty of Thai boxers that'll leg kick you as hard as possible and trust me, your leg is gonna give out. That's it, fights over. I myself do not have a bias towards any style, but I believe that the way the style trains people is the key to effectiveness. First off, many of the illegal tactics employed by styles are theoretical, in the sense that they are not practiced and/or employed during regular sparring (we all know that practicing eye-gouges would be very unsafe, not to mention painful, but this is not my point anyways) what I am trying to say is, the tools that many traditional stylists are hoping to use as their "fight enders" are for the most part not practiced, and they become "after thoughts" when they are faced with an opponent.
I have gotten into several fights and I tell ya, the last thing you are thinking about is a refined strategy so you can eye gouge your opponent. When the fight is on, you are going to fight the same way that you have been training lately. If you have been doing pre-arranged drills and push hands then chances are you are gonna react the same way you would with your training partner. If you have been sparring, slipping and bobbing punches, working knees and elbows in the clinch, wrestling and focusing on takedown defense and takedowns then you are gonna do those same movements. Our body reacts on instinct based on repetition of the actual movement that we practice. So, if you have been "punching" your partner but stopping about an inch away from him so you don't hurt him, then you are not going to suddenly be able to knock a guy out.

Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling and all other combat sports train people to react to their opponents from day one. That is why we simply "throw" people right in there. True, you are gonna get your ass kicked for the first couple of weeks. But once you start learning to respond, all you have to do is work on your techniques and how to employ them. When I wrestled in highschool, they taught me a few takedowns and threw me in there with the rest of the team, did I get my butt handed to me? Oh yeah! But within two weeks I was wrestling much better and I was hanging even with more experienced wrestlers. Do wrestlers drill a lot? Yes, about one hour every time we practiced was devoted to lectures, demonstrations, and then practice, this was further refined by "open mat" sessions were we would practice freestyle, no restrictions. That is how you develop your attributes and your ability to respond to any moves. No pre arranged movements. Although pre arranged moves are used as a teaching tool, but not the main teaching method. I am simply trying to explain the reasoning behind many "sports guys" opinions. MT, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling are probably some of the best ways to train for self-defense, they are not the "ultimate" way, but are a very effective method of teaching. I hope I have cleared some doubts on these disciplines. By the way, good thread Chris.

[chris davis 200]

Thanks lost ronin,

an intelligent responce which is very informative.

I think that maybe i have had the good fortune to train in traditional arts that still keep it real and are based in combat, not ritualistic or spiritual practices.

On a side note did anyone see the programme - 'way of the warrior' on descovery (UK) the other day.

It was about the traditional Japanese arts.

The Karateka at the start were very tough, doing extreme body conditioning and full contact sparring without pads. If you saw it you would have been impressed by these traditional training methods.

Unfortunatley - the rest was pretty appaling, Combat KI (total made up rubish!), some american aikido guy (Terrible technique and some very very very fake stuff!).

But anyway

cheers for the replays guys

chris