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  • Bruce Lee & Past MA Guys

    I’ve been watching footage of Bruce Lee training James Coburn and there’s a clear distinction between yesterday’s idea of combat compared to today. Bruce was teaching James all these high and spinning kicks, in which case, James performed them very poorly. In all honesty, James Coburn would have been better served developing simple low kicks and strikes.

    Before the 90’s, the typical idea of fighting was two guys trading blows while standing. At this time, a general consensus was that grappling techniques were nonsense. Thus, a wave of TKD, karate and kung-fu schools emerged.

    However, even Bruce Lee whose theories were in the right direction, struggled to find realism. He was too intent on the idea of “one hit knock outs” and high fancy kicks, etc. In one footage, Bruce teaches the backfist to James Coburn. Bruce moves in and James throws a backfist, then Bruce falls to the ground. In reality, a backfist would not stop an opponent, let alone send him to the ground.

    Today, guys who used to rely on side kicks, high roundhouse kicks and spin kicks like Chuck Norris are now learning BJJ, Muay Thai tactics or NHB techniques.

    Don’t get me wrong... High kicks and backfists have their place, but with less theorizing today and more simulation through combat training, one has a better understanding of “WHEN” such techniques can be used.

    Don “the Dragon” Wilson was commenting during one of the UFC’s. He kept saying how someone should slip inside and throw body blows... The whole time, I’m wondering if he recalls that in Thailand, he got rocked by knees and elbows while throwing to the body. Guess not.

  • #2
    You make some good points.

    James Coburn and Bruce Lee were both actors, though. High kicks are definitely flashy for the screen. I think you have to keep this in mind when viewing the footage.

    Most of Bruce Lee's students are pretty consistent in that these flashy-type kicks were never stressed.

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    • #3
      Well, at least you make some points...be they good or not....


      Real fighting in movies would make for a boring fight movie. You'd have to actually have someone around who could write and a few folks who could act.

      The more realistic the fighting tries to appear the more hokie it becomes. Just look at JCVD and Seagal movies. Compare them to Crouching Kitten Hidden Weasel and Iron Monkey and the Matrix. What makes these movies entertaining? The fantastic fight scenes that everyone (ok, most everyone) realizes are fantasy.

      Juxtapose that with the crap passed off by 'realistic' fight sequences. Give me 'The Five Deadly Venoms' any day....

      Movies are entertainment. Bruce Lee was an entertainer/movie star. His 'movie' fighting and his 'martial arts' fighting were NOT the same thing.

      You wanna see a good 'real' fight sequence watch the sword master duel in the beginning of The Seven Samurai. They start dueling with wooden swords and the master tells his opponent that 'you have lost'. Of course the opponent argues and presses the issue to which he is readily sliced open with a real sword. The whole duel lasts less than ten seconds. Then they had to fill up the dead space with, like, acting and stuff.

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      • #4
        I love hong kong cinema. Everyone does kung fu, old people have the most unusual and therefore best styles, if you know martial arts you can fly. And everytime you hit something it explodes and flour comes out. And you get the ability to talk without moving your mouth, a rare power indeed. Oh and don't forget the bizzare sound effects everytime someone moves or uses a weapon.

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        • #5
          Now we are talking entertainment!


          How sweet would it be to jump/fly like that and make that noise?

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          • #6
            Spanky,

            Have you seen the footage that Great Sage is talking about?

            It's a private lesson filmed by Bruce Lee with an overdubbed commentary by Lee to help Coburn on his technique.

            It's definitely NOT a movie.


            The scene in Seven Samurai was choreographed by Sugino Sensei of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. It's one of the oldest koryu in Japan as is considered a national treasure.

            Just a note to those interested.
            Last edited by moma_news; 05-28-2003, 04:05 PM.

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            • #7
              Thank you moma_news,

              At least someone knows what I'm talking about. The footage shows Bruce training Coburn to kick and punch. Unfortunately, kicking is something Coburn should avoid altogether, especially high and spinning kicks.

              As much as I love Bruce Lee, I think James Coburn would have benefitted more by learning boxing or some type of grappling. Some people are just built for certain things.

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              • #8
                Bruce wasn't teaching combat to Coburn in that footage. He was going over movements for movie choreography (he even says afte the backfist, "now that could be used in film")
                and giving James just a good workout.

                Bruce taught people how to go past the limitations they had. With the actors he taught, it was all about self-expression through MA.....not combat realism.

                Bruce said so on numerous occasions. He even said about his actor students "I'm not teaching them how to do somebody in, but rather to express themselves through some physical movement."

                Bruce's theories on what was "real" was low kicking, infighting, grappling, and finger jabs.
                He never advocated high kicking or spin kicking for real combat.
                Anyone who actually studies what he said knows that.

                Saying Bruce was just an actor is quite funny since the guy made a total of 4 films and died LOL

                The rest of his 32 years was spent teaching the martial arts, working with other martial artists, etc.

                again...... anyone who really studies what he did knows that.

                It's like saying Gene Lebelle is just an actor because he was in movies....

                Actors train in martial arts to prepare for parts.

                Martial artists train because it's their life's work

                Ryu

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                • #9
                  Oh and don't forget the bizzare sound effects everytime someone moves or uses a weapon.
                  My favorite is Sonny Chiba. He does some pretty cruel stuff to people in his movies. And they never used fake blood in his Street Fighter movies, it was just orange paint. The sound effect when they punch and kick sounds like a whip.

                  I saw some footage of Bruce in a real tournament and it didn't look like he was doing too well. I guess he did win some tourneys a long time ago but he didn't do it with all the flashey stuff you see in his movies.
                  Last edited by MrPoopy; 05-28-2003, 04:58 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Bruce Lee competing

                    Mr Poopy: per your last post, Bruce Lee only competed 1. in a high school boxing event, 2, in some dance contests, 3. in some street fights between rival gung fu schools, while still a teenager in hong kong, and of course wong man jack in his school in oakland, , and one fight/spar with a karate black belt in seattle while going to college, he naver competed in any orginized fighting compition in the u.s. train hard, train smart.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)

                      Saying Bruce was just an actor is quite funny since the guy made a total of 4 films and died LOL

                      I read back over the posts to make sure, but I didn't find where anyone said that Bruce Lee was "just" an actor.

                      If you think that this was what I was implying, then you've misunderstood me.

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                      • #12
                        Good realistic fighting on film...

                        I liked Bruce Lee's later movies when he had a bit more creative control over the fight scenes. I rather enjoyed Seagal's older movies with his use of Aikido. Hell, one of the best ( as in, realistic ) fight scenes I've ever watched was the end of ' Rocky V '.

                        Jeff Speakman ( American Kenpo black belt ) had some excellent scenes in some of his movies ( to my knowledge, the most notable ones are from ' The Perfect Weapon ', ' Street Knight ', and ' Deadly Outbreak ', though I haven't seen all of his films yet ). Though it is stretched out a good bit ( no movie portrays a fight in the actual time it transpires ), the movements and techniques used are realistic, as well as realisitically portrayed.

                        But, that's just my opinion.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by moma_news



                          I read back over the posts to make sure, but I didn't find where anyone said that Bruce Lee was "just" an actor.

                          If you think that this was what I was implying, then you've misunderstood me.

                          My mistake. I did think you were implying he was just an actor. I jumped the gun a bit. My apologies.

                          Ryu

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                          • #14
                            Yeah, I bet mama_news doesn't even know who Bruce Lee was!?!?


                            Hey Moma, you should read these articles , you might learn something.....

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                            • #15
                              Oh! You guys were talking about "Bruce Lee"! I thought it was "Bruce Li"!


                              No problem Ryu.

                              "The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything."

                              Edward John Phelps

                              Spanky, who is that hack?

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