The Distinction In Levels Of Mastery

[J-Luck]

First, there is no "other words". You're paraphrasing what I said obviously because you misunderstood from the beginning. When people start of with "in other words", its usually because they're fishing for a argument. I did not say anyone was better athletes. MMA fighters are actually excellent athletes, and you can find me stating that above. They are not however, excellent boxers. There's just no debating that. If you believe that they are, then all of your knowledge of boxing comes from watching MMA.

Now a far as consistent logic, the MMA fighters who are already involved and training for competition could easily make the transition to boxing had they possessed the boxing skills that some claim they do. How many TMA fighters are in UFC type events? Few are, and the ones that are are usually the ones who excel. Chuck Lidell. Nogueira. CroCop. Fedor. The majority of the fighters, but not all, that you see in today's UFC type events got most of their training and fighting style from MMA trainers. They're young guys who are in excellent shape who are taught to fight like Thai fighters who can grapple. Period. Many of the TMA guys who you say could just waltz in and earn money aren't in competitive shape and have no plan to get into that shape. MMA fighters are already in shape. Better shape than some boxers. How is that inconsistent? Or is it that once again you just didn't see that?



You say that terrible boxers never make it to the pros? Again, you confirm your lack of knowledge about the sport of boxing. There are pros that you'll NEVER hear of. Club fighters and journeyman who are around only to be paid as opponents to pad records. There are pro boxers that have other jobs because they can't pay bills with the money they make from boxing. I bet you don't even know how to get a pro card, let alone how easy it is to do. Investigate and learn something!



How have I dismissed anyone? I never took away anything from Golden Gloves boxers. I simply stated that winning a GG championship does not make a great boxer. That doesn't reflect on determination, hard work, disclipline or talent. It only refers to skill, which is seperate from those other 4 attributes. You assume what I can and cannot do because I, unlike many of you, do not feel the need to boast and spread my accomplishments on an internet forum. Unlike many of you, I'm not selling anything and more than that, I am not even trying to promote anything. But that doesn't mean that I will not comment.

To be honest, other than by what you write, none of you have any credibilty here. You might think you do, but you don't. This is an internet forum where you will never know what I can do, and vice versa, but when your posts demonstrate a clear lack of understanding, don't be angered when others comment on it. You sound foolish by stating what I cannot or better yet have not accomplished. I have never asked what you've done or accomplished because I don't care about you. But here, just like on the issue of the human shield, you demonstrated such a lack of understanding about such a simple method and concept that it was no assumption that you argue much, but know little.

I can't state enough that most of you should learn something about a thing before you argue the merits of it. I welcome all opinions, buut informed opinions are prefered. Its clear that Sagacious Lu has no idea how easy it is to get a pro card. He clearly thinks that anyone who does is an accomplished boxer. And he clearly thinks that because he has a computer at hime that he knows what other people have done, trained in, and for how long. This would qualify as someone debating to debate, not because he has any shadow of an idea about what is being discussed.

Good luck with that, Sagacious Lu

I'm done on this topic. I had hoped something would come from this debate, but when no one can seems to know about the subject matter, ist time to call it a day.

How come what I say usually doesn't get rebutted.... blah so much for me using facts and logic lol. I agree with you though Uke... Some pro boxers are laughable... but I also stand by what I said about MMA... some are very skilled and at the TOP OF THEIR GAME in other arts and styles... though some are not. It really is a mix-match.

[Sagacious Lu]

Many of the TMA guys who you say could just waltz in and earn money aren't in competitive shape and have no plan to get into that shape. MMA fighters are already in shape. Better shape than some boxers. How is that inconsistent? Or is it that once again you just didn't see that?

I didn't say that, you're the one that said:

There are much better athletes and fighters in TMA than MMA fighters and advocates would have you believe.

Now you're back peddling and making excuses by saying they aren't in competitive shape. Make up your mind, are they better athletes than they get credit for or are they just not up to competitive standards? Mind you, these are just your statements and you can't seem to agree with yourself, I haven't weighed in with an opinion yet

You say that terrible boxers never make it to the pros? Again, you confirm your lack of knowledge about the sport of boxing. There are pros that you'll NEVER hear of. Club fighters and journeyman who are around only to be paid as opponents to pad records. There are pro boxers that have other jobs because they can't pay bills with the money they make from boxing. I bet you don't even know how to get a pro card, let alone how easy it is to do. Investigate and learn something!

I'm so glad I have your lawyer to clear all that up for me

You assume what I can and cannot do because I, unlike many of you, do not feel the need to boast and spread my accomplishments on an internet forum.

Its clear that Sagacious Lu has no idea how easy it is to get a pro card. He clearly thinks that anyone who does is an accomplished boxer. And he clearly thinks that because he has a computer at hime that he knows what other people have done, trained in, and for how long. This would qualify as someone debating to debate, not because he has any shadow of an idea about what is being discussed.

Oh okay, I'm the one making assumptions but you know all about me from my 400 some odd posts on this site. You're not too bright are you?

I'm done on this topic. I had hoped something would come from this debate, but when no one can seems to know about the subject matter, ist time to call it a day.

Good idea, unless you have some more pearls from your lawyer to share with us this would be a great time for you to STFU. Jack ass

[Uke]

How come what I say usually doesn't get rebutted.... blah so much for me using facts and logic lol. I agree with you though Uke... Some pro boxers are laughable... but I also stand by what I said about MMA... some are very skilled and at the TOP OF THEIR GAME in other arts and styles... though some are not. It really is a mix-match.

I apologize J-Luck. I had every intention of replying to you, as you were the only one who actually gave something worth debating. Everyone else either challenged the "semantics" of definitions, or just glossed over the material at hand by saying that I made generalizations.

Billy Blanks is a ...(dont quote me on this but you can look it up) 3 time world kickboxing champion, or champ in full contact karate... so maybe not the best example.

Also, saying MMA fighters aren't as skilled in isolated areas of fighting then claiming it as fact is not correct. Karo Parysian is an olympic trial runner up(at the age of 19 i think... hes like 22 now), There are BJJ black belts who are also world champs... Jeff Monson is a 3 time Abu Dabi heavyweight champ(Abu Dhabi is the considered the most prestigeous submission grappling tournament in the world). Jeff is also a pro boxer with a 4-0 record. Many wrestlers in the UFC were either champs in their state, were very successfull in the NCAA, or were in the olympics... I belive Chuck Liddell was a world champ kickboxer, though I could be wrong... I mean no disrespect on to you and I definitly admire your logical and "stick to the thread" type posting(which is rare around here).

Bliily Blanks was not a good example for your argument, but he's excellent for mine! He ws a former champion several times, but was he a great karate fighter? No. Yet he was champion?

J-Luck, I was correct that MMA fighter are not as skill. By MMA fighters, and I thought I made this clear, I am referring to the group that came into MMA with little to no skill, and began training under former MMA fighters to acquire a style that was MMA "friendly". Young guys, who are in greeat shape, and are eager to fight in tournaent styled events. When you began naming people like Chuck Lidell and BJJ experts, you began speaking of those who had already hined skill over years before ever entering in MMA. And it was always my contention that fighters that have spent years mastering their skills will always fare better than those who train "a little of this, a little of that".

The Abu Dhabi is not an MMA tournament. It is a grappling tournament. Wrestler who were champions in their state were wrestlers first and foremost before they ever fought in MMA. Remember, just because you fight in a MMA tournament doesn't make you a MMA fighter. CroCop was a muay Thai/kickboxer before he fought in MMA. Nogureira was a BJJ stylist before he fought in MMA. Fedor boxed and practiced judo for most of his life before he entered MMA. Is it a coincidence that these type of fighters dominate? They are TMA that were at the top in whatever they were doing [i]BEFORE[/] they came to MMA.

I mean no disrespect on to you and I definitly admire your logical and "stick to the thread" type posting(which is rare around here)

There was nothing disrespectful about your reply. This is how we are supposed to debate. Its a clear sign that someone is lost in a debate when they begin bringing up irrelevant points and ideas, and when that doesn't work, they lose it and begin with insults and sarcasm. The way to get an idea of what a man knows on a forum like this is to read what he writes. Click on the names of the guys here and read just a few of their past posts, and it will tell the story.

Good points you brought up, but I just think we had a miscommunication on what I meant by "MMA fighter".

Peace

[J-Luck]

I apologize J-Luck. I had every intention of replying to you, as you were the only one who actually gave something worth debating. Everyone else either challenged the "semantics" of definitions, or just glossed over the material at hand by saying that I made generalizations.

Hehe thanks.
Bliily Blanks was not a good example for your argument, but he's excellent for mine! He ws a former champion several times, but was he a great karate fighter? No. Yet he was champion?

I think this is somewhere where we disagree, I've seen him fight before and I think he was pretty good.

J-Luck, I was correct that MMA fighter are not as skill. By MMA fighters, and I thought I made this clear, I am referring to the group that came into MMA with little to no skill, and began training under former MMA fighters to acquire a style that was MMA "friendly". Young guys, who are in greeat shape, and are eager to fight in tournaent styled events. When you began naming people like Chuck Lidell and BJJ experts, you began speaking of those who had already hined skill over years before ever entering in MMA. And it was always my contention that fighters that have spent years mastering their skills will always fare better than those who train "a little of this, a little of that".

I also agree with this... I guess I was arguing the wrong point.

The Abu Dhabi is not an MMA tournament. It is a grappling tournament. Wrestler who were champions in their state were wrestlers first and foremost before they ever fought in MMA. Remember, just because you fight in a MMA tournament doesn't make you a MMA fighter. CroCop was a muay Thai/kickboxer before he fought in MMA. Nogureira was a BJJ stylist before he fought in MMA. Fedor boxed and practiced judo for most of his life before he entered MMA. Is it a coincidence that these type of fighters dominate? They are TMA that were at the top in whatever they were doing [i]BEFORE[/] they came to MMA.

Never said it was an MMA tournament, in fact I stated it was the top ranked world submission grappling championship. Also, some wrestlers were in fact olympians, NCAA champs(which is much much more than being a state champ.)

There was nothing disrespectful about your reply. This is how we are supposed to debate. Its a clear sign that someone is lost in a debate when they begin bringing up irrelevant points and ideas, and when that doesn't work, they lose it and begin with insults and sarcasm. The way to get an idea of what a man knows on a forum like this is to read what he writes. Click on the names of the guys here and read just a few of their past posts, and it will tell the story.

Good points you brought up, but I just think we had a miscommunication on what I meant by "MMA fighter".

lol yea I agree. Good post man
Peace

People in this site can be dicks... but it's whatever, I just tune them out ya know... don't acknowledge those who don't deserve it.

[Tom Yum]

I'm done on this topic. I had hoped something would come from this debate, but when no one can seems to know about the subject matter, ist time to call it a day.

I don't think I've dropped any names, unless someone directly asked or unless I was talking to someone interested.

Uke, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. I'm not going to argue semantics with you because I'd rather spend my time learning something usefull about martial arts than debate the definition of the term great

Cool that your lawyer arranges boxing matches, that's gotta be nice.

Like I said, I appreciate your opinion and desire to talk about fights. Let's talk about training now since we agree to disagree on the definition of great

[jubaji]

I'm done on this topic. I had hoped something would come from this debate, but when no one can seems to know about the subject matter, ist time to call it a day.

I think the topic is done with you. Other than posturing and trying to pass off your opinion as fact, you've got nothing to say.