Broken Hands in A Streetfight

[sakuraba fan]

you can condition your fists by hitting hard objects.....gradually you can turn your fists into wrecking balls......its not going to be 100% safe from breaking them, but if you know how to punch right and you work on accuracy more than likely it won't be your fists being the bones that break.......unless the guy you are fighting is better then you and its your face being broken ;o)
I'm sure there are people that can do this here on this board, but I have no problem hitting a brick wall with power....not full power of course cause thats plain stupid...but you can condition to be able to hit a solid object with enough power that would break the average punks hand

good day

[Brokenmace]

Consider the following piece of advice: Use a hard object (fist) to attack a soft target (body, groin, ribs), and use a soft object (palm, hammer fist, arguably finger jab) to attack a hard target (such as the facial bones, jaw). You might consider hardening your hands, but the medical evidence about early-onset arthritis is pretty clear. Alternatively, you may consider using offensive tools which do not require hardening--because they're already hard. Shins, knees and elbows are in this category. However, due to the risk of blood mixing, it is not recommended to throw elbows without a heavy shirt or coat. But, having said that, elbows work WELL.

That was spot on, Terry. I reached that conclusion a while ago. That was around the time I tore a tendon on a punching bag (probably three years ago now). That's what happens when you don't use hand wraps, and you don't wrap your hands not just your wrists. I don't know why folks sometimes only wrap their wrists. The bones of the hand separate on impact, stressing the tissue that holds them together. This is actually the second most common injury in a street fight (regarding a punching hand injury).

They go in order:

Split skin

Torn tendon (between knuckles)

Broken wrist

Broken knuckle

And boxers actually have a higher incidence of injury. They usually avoid the broken wrist, but because they have so much power, never toughen their hands really, and always use wraps and gloves, some of them don't even know what it feels like to hit something full force with no support. A wrist can fold easily, even with strong forearms, especially with a horizontal punch. And many of them are never really taught which knuckles to punch with, which leads directly to torn tendons. That takes weeks to heal.

Here's my advice, somewhat modifying what Terry said:

Use vertical punches to the body and any other heavy power shot you choose. Your wrist is less likely to buckle under the stress. While going to the body, the knuckles don't matter as much, but the wrist should be straight, with the middle knuckle out ahead of them all, the back of the hand lined up with the forearm.

The vertical fist is also recommended for the hook, especially tight hooks. I can certify that the chances to injure your wrist are multiplied by hooking tight with a horizontal fist. Why? Because if the wrist happens to collapse on a vertical fist, the hand has more give in range of motion = no busted tissue. The hook should be aimed at the neck, base of the jaw, or ribs/kidneys. You'll tear yourself up hitting anywhere else.

Uppercuts are best when your enemy bends over, and aimed at the solar plexus or gut, not the jaw (the jaw hurts them more, but also hurts you too much). Elbows should go to the nose, temple, or neck, not the teeth. The knee should go to the body or side of the head, unless you feel like digging teeth out of your knee.

Respect.

[Guest]

I don't know. All these "do's and don't's" about punching. When will people learn to stick with a total "don't". There are much better ways to hit.

[Brokenmace]

First, punching is primal. Closing one's hands when threatened is a subconsious response in most people. This makes it ideal in many instances. The fist is a quick reaction weapon, and it is hard to displace it with any other technique (when one is in extreme danger, one reverts to the basics). Two, the fist is a longer range weapon than the palm heel, and more ridged and sturdy (therefore more versatile) than the spear hand (eye gouging, throat poaking, etc.). It is the middle ground strike, and is reliable and safe if used properly.

Also, many folks protect their heads above anything else, and only a few strikes have a better shock value against the trunk of the body. Most of these strikes require too little distance from the enemy or too much luck or manuevering.

Take the palm to the gut, for example: not only does it take more training than the fist for that target to make it work, it requires one to be closer, and will hurt less if angular momentum is lost (which happens often).

Palm heels, while excellent, require a loss of some four to six inches in relation to the punch. Why? Because the angle of a palm heel is up from the waist. The heel is aimed at the tip of the jaw or the septum, therefore to maximize force, you must come from underneath the target. This means your arm bends closer to your body than in a punch's terminal distance.

A straight palm heel, while it can be powerful, is harder to train and more likely to fail to shock, due to the absorbant qualities of the softer flesh of the hand. If the enemy moves away, it will feel like a light slap. Some punches can still damage even if the target moves away.

And how many of us seriously train without punching? How many of us actually aim to remove this strike from our toolset? If you don't want to punch, you have to train not to punch. If you do not, you will punch.

[terry]

Good points. I like the "punching is primal" point especially.

The previous posts were right about making your thinking complex. Complexity can be good for analysis, and sometimes you need to look at a problem from several different points of view. But when it comes down to fighting strategy, keep it simple. My solution is pretty basic: When you can, ELBOW.

Here's some background on how I got to that point of view: I do spend most of my punching time with my hands wrapped doing boxing punches. (I hit with palm strikes when my hands are worn out from too much boxing, such as the final day at the Oregon Thai camp.) But I also train a lot of elbows and prefer these to punches when I am in range. One reason why I like elbows is: power. One good Thai elbow is worth six or seven squarely landed punches. Another reason is: blood mixing. And when in a colder coastal climate that is produced in San Francisco you're gonna be wearing a coast most of the time, which means you are at less of a risk for blood mixing in throwing elbows than punches. Another reason is: hand protection. Mace's points on hand injuries speaks very well on this subject. My concern over hand protection is also due in part because I place such a high value on my other hobby as a musician.

Finally, my increased use of elbows overcompensates for an old bicycle racing injury that limits range on my right cross. Basically, I rarely knock somebody down in training with a cross. Rather, it is the curving lines that do the most damage. And like I said above, when you can, elbow. (I have also went to a couple of boxing trainers specifically to get help on a power jab and worked more on generating power & distance with my footwork when throwing the cross.)

T

[Guest]

This has come up before. Punching is not primal, and is only so prevalent because of the prevalance of arts that are on show to the public. Hands are made to grab. That is why almost every culture in the world has a grappling art.

Didn't some guy post a history of the development of Muay Thai a few weeks back? They had a whole host of nasty strikes before their fist was enveloped in a glove. Only then did punching become so common for the Thai's.

Palm heels do have less reach than a punch, but this is only due to the fact that the knuckles provide that little extra reach. All this "angle of the hands" stuff is not true. You can throw them exactly the same way as a jab or a cross, no "upward angle" is needed. Yet, after saying that, you can throw a blow called a "Chin Jab", which is like an uppercut. This is more effective than the orthodox uppercut, as it transforms into both an eye gouge and then a push that unbalances the opponent all at once, slamming his head into the floor if you wish.

The palm heel needs hardly any training, and needs nothing in the way of toughening up. Stand facing a brick wall. Can you punch it as hard as you can palm heel it? No. Your body won't let you even try. That really is a primal urge, an urge to stop you damaging yourself. Of course you could overcome this urge and punch that wall pretty hard. But have an ambulance ready.

The heel of the hand likely to absorb the shock? I don't think so. There is only minimal padding, much much less than any boxing/bag glove, and the solid surface directly underneath, uninhibited by and moving joints, will provide a far more solid surface with which to strike. We are not aiming to break something, we are aiming to jolt the head. And the head is as hard as the afore mentioned brick wall anyway.

Palm heel to the torso? If I was that close I would be ripping in knees and elbows all over him. There is no need for strikes to the body. A real fight is not a sport with rounds, were you can wear him down, "chopping down the tree". You've got to finish him as soon as is humanly possible. And people often have thick clothing that will absorb anything you throw at their body anyway. Keep your strikes to the head and neck, and your knees/kicks to the groin and legs. Body shots should be rare.

"If you don't want to punch, you have to train not to punch."

True, but only because we have wasted so many years training how to punch in the first place. Take any beginner. They don't even know how to make a fist. Putting the thumb inside the fingers is only one of the idiotic things they do. But let's not be too hard on them. It isn't their fault. After all, punching is NOT primal. It has to be learned.

Of course you must learn to punch if that is the tool favoured by your chosen sport. But if you want to fight for your life there are much much better ways, of which the heel of the hand is only one.

Let's sum up the punch as a tool to defend yourself :-

1. The knuckles will rip exposing wounds to whatever disease your opponent may have. Getting AIDS is not much in the way of self defence......

2. The tiny bones in the hand can break, along with the tendons straining. "Please go easy on me Mr. Attacker, as I have just broke my hand and have to fight one handed. Will you tie a hand behind your back? To make it fair?"

3. The wrist itself could sprain and snap. As above, "Please go easy on me.........."

4. Both 2 and 3 can happen even if you wear hand wraps and gloves.

5. But you can condition your hands.....if you like the feeling of arthiritis in later years. Then you can always ask people to wipe your bum for you, since you won't be able to manage it yourself.....

Punching. Not good is it?

[binski20]

Would it be possible to have this discussion elsewhere?
Punching may not be primal but it is a VERY important part of boxing. I understand the views being expressed and I do support them all. I myself do not use closed hand strikes on the streets, but I am a boxer and this board is the boxing board. I believe this discussion would better fit elsewhere.

[Brokenmace]

Actually, I've run into many a boxer who believes the way they fight in the ring is a large part of the way they should fight in the street, at least regarding the basic tools (i.e. the fist, and its targets). Therefore, I can't really think of a better place to bring up cautionary notes about bare-knuckle fighting.

I don't think the fist is obsolete, as Bri Thai apparently does. And if you look at a baby's startle reflex, it includes clinching the fist, so I think it is primal. So is grasping, as Bri Thai pointed out. They are both integral functions of the hand. To exclude either might be to look for trouble, unless you train one out very hard.

Old forms of wrestling weren't just grappling arts. Ancient Roman wrestlers bit, gouged, clawed, broke and, yes, they punched, often with nasty augmentations to their hand wraps, as did the old time Thai boxers. Things were bloody and nasty back then, so don't pretend that the fist is somehow a "newfangled" invention of modern times. It is ancient.

So: no, you shouldn't punch to the head; yes, punching to the gut is a valid response, depending on the situation; no, your hammerfist is not invincible to sharp teeth and certain other bony parts of the body; yes, your knife hand can get injured.

Everything depends on target and position. Sometimes knees make things worse, sometimes fists do.

[binski20]

All good points!
There is no doubt that in a street fight, punching to the head can be very dangerous. However, there are instances where they have also been ended with a punch to the jaw. As with anything, there is no golden rule that can be used and followed. It is different for each situation and each individual. The more tools on is capable of using, the better.

[Guest]

Brokenmace - how can you differentiate between a baby "grasping" and a baby making a fist...... It is the same movement. And as for the ancient arts, they covered their fist. I wonder why that was......We can agree to differ, as usual.

Hey binski - if you think the discussion should be elsewhere, why are you joining in? Just how many blows to the head have you taken, Homer? Doh!

Mind you, you do have a point. This Boxing Forum is full to the brim, having almost one hundredth the amount of posts as the MMA section. Yep, we'd better go elsewhere. Don't want to jam this Boxing bit up now do we? No sir! It's a good job you were here to tell us, 23 POSTS INTO THE DISCUSSION YOU NUMPTY!.

As a wise man once said, on the Boxing Forum no less - "Thanks Terry - you know what for". Now how more relevant can you get than that?

Dick head.

[binski20]

Dick head???
LMFAO
I think someone missed taking their pill.
Chill buddy.
I didn't know there was a contest for how many posts there was in a forum. Better get started.
Man, this is a discussion, my angle on it was that the discussion was more suited to the MMA forum as it was addressing the types of issues prevalent there. A boxing forum is just that, about boxing.
As for the name calling, if ya can't handle an opinion, maybe you shouldn't be in a place where discussions take place????
I got no beef going, and was just suggesting that the post was better suited in MMA. The post definitly has credit, which I never said it did not.
Boxing is boxing, punches are thrown.
MMA is MMA, all kinds of strikes are thrown.
To me it seemed better suited there.
Just an opinion, like it or leave it.

[Guest]

I think I'll leave it, thanks. Especially since you don't seem to know how to follow your own opinion........... Wank Chops!

[goatnipples2002]

You usually break your hand if you have your hand clinched tight through the whole motion of punching. If you tighten your frist upon contact you will greatly reduce your chances of breaking your hand.

[darrianation]

Re: Broken Hands in A Streetfight

Originally posted by RapidAssault16
Have any of u guys ever broken a hand in a streetfight, whenever you punched someone in the skull? I always hear of people breaking their hands in streetfights when punching, is this true?

It happens all the time. And there is no scientific evidence to support conditioning of the fist is benificial or works. Yes you can condition yourself to take the pain, but this doesnt necessarily translate into fewer or no injuries. Infact it can be counter productive. Body part coditioning (if done at all), should start very light then gradually increased slowly over time. If your bruising then your going to hard. Stop wait for the bruising to go away before you start again. With that said i dont recommend it. practice on a heavy bag. This will condition fists,knees,elbows etc.etc.

[ryanhall]

You usually break your hand if you have your hand clinched tight through the whole motion of punching. If you tighten your frist upon contact you will greatly reduce your chances of breaking your hand.

Actually, that's not true. That's just the proper way to get the most power and speed out of your punch. If you tense up before throwing the punch rather than on impact, you will be slower, more telegraphic, and noticably less powerful.

The deciding factors in whether you will break your hand are these:
1) How tough your hands are. Some people have hands made for knitting, some have hands like sledge hammers. The former will break from almost any real impact.
2) The target you hit. If you tag someone anywhere but the chin, jaw, temple, or nose, expect a fracture. The fist doesn't hold up well to the skull.
3) Wrist strength. If you have weak wrists, you won't be able to support the force your punch creates, causing a break, sprain, or fracture.

You can minimize the chances of breaking your hand by never throwing a horizontal hook (palm down) to the head (you will get a boxer's fracture), hitting with the center knuckle rather than a group of knuckles, and being very selective about when you punch. Punching can be very useful, but it is risky. Also, as was mentioned further up on this thread, there are much better ways of striking. Think about it like this: you will not be forced to defend yourself in the training hall or gym in a well-lit ring. Hitting someone square can be tough there if they don't want you to do it. A slight flinch by your assailant can take your cross to the jaw and turn it into a knucklebuster to the forehead. Use punching sparingly.