what forms do you do in kungfu?

[Thai Bri]

Yes. That is very true. Wing Chun is cool and effectve against someone who is sparring (as opposed to fighting) AND is not experienced at doing so.

Praise indeed.

[jmd161]

Yes. That is very true. Wing Chun is cool and effectve against someone who is sparring (as opposed to fighting) AND is not experienced at doing so.

Praise indeed.

Bri,

I really don't understand you.

In one thread you claim that training is always better than no training. But then you turn around ,and bash every TCMA artist or style you can. Would'nt that be considered ,being a "hypocrite"?!?!

jeff

[Thai Bri]

If it were true, yes. Hpowever, I have never ever ever claimed that "training is always better than no training".

Unless you would care to point out where I have?

Methinks you have more half truths and inaccurate statements to make.

[konghan]

If it were true, yes. Hpowever, I have never ever ever claimed that "training is always better than no training".

Unless you would care to point out where I have?

Methinks you have more half truths and inaccurate statements to make.

uhm? the way Bri talk, I believe he has a traumatic expereince against a TMA fighter. That is why he attacks all TMA whenever he can in this forum. Its` his way of getting back at TMA.

[jmd161]

If it were true, yes. Hpowever, I have never ever ever claimed that "training is always better than no training".

Unless you would care to point out where I have?

Methinks you have more half truths and inaccurate statements to make.

Whatever Bri.

You claimed in another thread that it's better to have some trainiing than none ,but when it comes to TCMA ,you always change your tune. And try to say that it's no good or what have you. Really your thoughts about TCMA don't mean anything ,but a lack of understanding on your part.

jeff

[Thai Bri]

Do find me the thread. Whilst your looking you'll probably see a few posts where I point out how Kata training is BAD for your fighting development.

konghan - I have trained TMA, including Shukokai Karate, Wing Chun Kung Fu and Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Hardly traumatic, except if I think about all the wasted years!

ps - come on JMD. Lets see you back up your allegation. Or withdraw it. Isn't it a pit when someone can't back up what they say?

[jmd161]

Do find me the thread. Whilst your looking you'll probably see a few posts where I point out how Kata training is BAD for your fighting development.

You know I don't want to find the thread ,so say what you want about that. I come here for discussions to help ppl understand TCMA. I'm not interested in continuing an argument anymore. It's boring and really serves no purpose.

I would like to hear why kata is bad for your fighting developement though. If you would like to discuss that fine ,if you're still looking to argue? then forget it.

I have trained TMA, including Shukokai Karate, Wing Chun Kung Fu and Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Hardly traumatic, except if I think about all the wasted years!

It's funny that people are quick to blame the arts they trained in ,instead of their teachers or themselves. There are many reasons why you wasted yrs in those styles.(1) How much did you really put into understanding what was being taught? (2) How do you know that the teacher was all he claimed to be? (3) How much did you work with the teacher on your own in application of the techniques you learned? (4) How many times did you stand up and admit in class that you did'nt understand or see how the technique would work?

People complain about styles and the teaching they received ,but they are just as much to blame as any Mc Dojo or Mc Kwoon. If you continue to train in an art that does'nt drill techniques or applications. Then that's your fault that you stayed in something that it's obvious you were not gaining anything from.

ps - come on JMD. Lets see you back up your allegation. Or withdraw it. Isn't it a pit when someone can't back up what they say?

You know what Bri you're right ,i withdraw my "allegation"

I'm really not in the mood to look thru all your post ,and one find it ,only to continue an argument with you. I don't post or visit forums to argue ,it's really a waste of time ,and space. If you want to discuss things? then fine i'll be glad to discuss from a TCMA point of view ,while you can speak from a MMA or Reality based point of view.

That makes more sense to me where others can learn different points of views ,and why those arts or styles have that point of view. Not these little tit for tat arguments with you or anyone else. I really am too old for internet posing!!

jeff

[Thai Bri]

Thanks for withdrawing this particular allegation. Though you have hardly done it particularly graciously. You were wrong.

No. It is fair to blame TMAs if you work hard at them but still see that the results are next to useless. It is just a glib comment to blame the people. TMAs have appalling records in both ring and street situations. People merely cling onto them because they are either ignorant, in denial or making money out of them.

Kata - heres why it is bad for you. The movements are against thin air and, as such, the dynamics are totally different to hitting objects/people. So, you are learning to move incorrectly. Also, many have robotic movements - learning to do it wrong. The have unrealistic distances against these invisible "opponents", i.e. the person moves INTO the range of an attack to block - an attack that would have missed them if they had just stayed still. Learning to do it wrong. It goes on and on Jeff. You only have one body. In the stresses of a real fight you will react in the way you have trained. Kata movement is never even seen in sparring, so how the flook is it going to help in a real go? I will get you creamed.

Jeff, on the issue of being prepared you are all over the place. You can't but you can etc. Again (third or fourth time of requesting) who is safest to patrol the streets? The trained and experienced police officer or the college kid? We all know "who", don't we Jeff? And the "why" is pretty obvious too. I know you wil fail to answer the point (again), so here it is for you. The trained and experienced police officer is safest, because he is most prepared.

Jeff, this logically proves that you CAN prepare for the streets. No one is claiming invincibility (emphasised again). But the better prepared, the better your chances.

Yes?

[jmd161]

Thanks for withdrawing this particular allegation. Though you have hardly done it particularly graciously. You were wrong.

Bri, i withdrew it because i did not feel like carrying on an argument or looking thru post to find it. It was not about TMA ,but you did say that some training is better than none. If that is the case ,like you say with training for the streets it prepares you. Then why would'nt TMA or TCMA prepare you better for a fight than NO training???

No. It is fair to blame TMAs if you work hard at them but still see that the results are next to useless. It is just a glib comment to blame the people. TMAs have appalling records in both ring and street situations. People merely cling onto them because they are either ignorant, in denial or making money out of them.

That is where you are wrong bro!!

Where do you think MMA techniques come from??? Look at the UFC/Pride/KOTC ,any of those NHB events. All the fighters have some background in TMA. It's people that sit back and watch these type of events that think that because some guy's who claimed kung fu,karate, or some TMA in the earlier UFC's lost ,that they can actually prove TMA does'nt work.

It is FOOLISH for anyone to think or believe that because Tito Ortiz or anyone beat a TMA stylist ,that they themself can do the samething!! That is where many MMA artist are fooling themselves. Anyone that truly knows martial arts knows that grappling and MMA type fighting is nothing new. The Monguls were wrestling ,and grappling long before any UFC/Pride/NHB event was ever thought of.

You know why grapplers fare so well against strikers now?

It's because for so long strikers were able to handle grapplers with ease ,so they began to prepare for fighting other strikers ,and let their anti-grappling techniques demise. So all it took was someone to look for a weakness against a striker. If anyone has any brains they know that a strikers weakness is going to be on the ground on his back. So that's a short version of why MMA or Grapplers fare so well against strikers and TMA ppl now.

Kata - heres why it is bad for you. The movements are against thin air and, as such, the dynamics are totally different to hitting objects/people. So, you are learning to move incorrectly. Also, many have robotic movements - learning to do it wrong. The have unrealistic distances against these invisible "opponents", i.e. the person moves INTO the range of an attack to block - an attack that would have missed them if they had just stayed still. Learning to do it wrong. It goes on and on Jeff. You only have one body. In the stresses of a real fight you will react in the way you have trained. Kata movement is never even seen in sparring, so how the flook is it going to help in a real go? I will get you creamed.

Bri, that only proves that you don't understand kata/forms. You NEVER i repeat NEVER try to fight with a form ,that's not what forms are done for. They are desinged to string a group of techniques together to make them easier to remember and translate the techniques. I've said this so amny times that this is where ppl go wrong. You don't try ,and fight using a form. You take the techniques in a form drill them to understand the different ways you can use ,and apply them. Then you add the technique to your normal method of fighting.

Most ppl try to fit their method of fighting into a form that is stupid ,and crazy. That shows that they did'nt understand their teaching or their teacher did not know what he was doing. If you can't use any techniques from your training in sparring? Then you are in the WRONG schoolk!!!

Jeff, on the issue of being prepared you are all over the place. You can't but you can etc. Again (third or fourth time of requesting) who is safest to patrol the streets? The trained and experienced police officer or the college kid? We all know "who", don't we Jeff? And the "why" is pretty obvious too. I know you wil fail to answer the point (again), so here it is for you. The trained and experienced police officer is safest, because he is most prepared.

Well Bri,

Think about what you just asked ,and see if you see the Irony of that question?

How many ppl just up ,and attack police officers??

If you're a crook on the streets ,are you going to try and rob a cop or some college kid? Are you going to attack some big jock looking guy or a petite little female? So really how often are cops attacked ,and robbed or rapped,beaten or mugged on the streets?!?!

Jeff, this logically proves that you CAN prepare for the streets. No one is claiming invincibility (emphasised again). But the better prepared, the better your chances.
Yes?

Bri,

It only proves that you can try.

If i walked around with a police uniform,badge,and gun everyday ,how many ppl do you think are going to try and rob me or beat me up to take my money?? If i'm a average size guy dressed nice walking down the streets ,what do you think my chances are of being a victim of street violence over that cops???

I'd say i have a 200% more chance of being attacked as the average guy dressed nice. Would'nt you?!?!

jeff

[Thai Bri]

You really are an idiot.

You withdrew an allegation, and now make it again. Still without verification. Pathetic, unfair and idiotic.

Yes. Almost all MMA people came from TMAs. They had to, because that was all that was available when they started out. But they REJECTED the TMAs. Thats why MMA was invented! Because TMAs cannot hack it in a real go!!!!! And the new MMA fighters are coming up without any TMA experience whatsoever. And they are just as good as those with the TMA experence. All TMA did for the older set was to waist some of their time!

Kata - here we go again. No other physical art, be it boxing, tennis, footbal etc. etc. etc. has the equivalent of Kata. Yes, occasionally people warm up a bit against thin air........ but not with robotic, predermined, meaningless dances. You've fallen for the TMA bull shit. Jeff, I was also in TMAs. I also tried to draw some reassurance that what I was being taught as going to help me fight if I needed to. But a visit to both a Thai Boxing gym and a ground fighting class soon dispelled that silly myth. You are wilfuly blind.

You have finally tried to address the issue re experienced police officers and high school kids. But you misunderstood it. Maybe I didn't make myself clear, so here goes. I am comparing how both sets would fair whilst patrolling as officers. Like I said, if you "can't prepare for the streets", the students are in no more danger. But, whilst I think of it, you can also compare them in how they just walk around in every day life. Imagine they are both asked to walk around a city - no uniforms etc., just normal clothes. Who is in most danger, and why?

The students are, because they have not had the experience and training of the officers, they have not had the same preparation of the streets. Durrrr........

So try again to answer the question, as hopefully you now understand it.

ps - I look forward to more inventive mis quotes that never took place......

[konghan]

Do find me the thread. Whilst your looking you'll probably see a few posts where I point out how Kata training is BAD for your fighting development.

konghan - I have trained TMA, including Shukokai Karate, Wing Chun Kung Fu and Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Hardly traumatic, except if I think about all the wasted years!

ps - come on JMD. Lets see you back up your allegation. Or withdraw it. Isn't it a pit when someone can't back up what they say?

Thats` why that fustration & intense negativeness or "hatred" for TMA. But has it occur to you that many MA schools out there specially those that are refer to as "macdojos" are just there for the money & to have parents drop off their kids to have fun & socialise. In fact teachers, instructors or sifus of those kind of schools are more like baby sitters. Thats` why boxing training centres are not for kids but for serious trainers same with kick boxing these clubs train price fighters not nursery school.
Kung fu in the traditional sense doesnot want to become a price fighting art becuase of, lets call it "spiritualism or religion" that goes with it.

The principle of kung fu has always been about self defense, humility, humbleness, bravery & righteousness. Part of being a true master of kung fu is not only to know how to hurt or "kill your enemies but also to know how to heal. That is why all true master of kung fu are also healers in western equivalent they are doctors, chirophractor, herbalist & accupuncturist.

Being a price fighter has always been left to individual kung fu people to decide on. And in many cases they don`t get the proper training to be a price fighter.

Historically, kung fu fighters have excell exemptionally well in combat & have gain both fear & respect from the authorities. That is why the early manchu dynasty went on a rampage to destroy all shaolin monastery teaching kung fu & have all village kung fu clubs to pledge allegiance to them or face destruction. And that trend continue during the Japanese WWII time & the communist take over of China.

Here is a small picture of what it takes & how a true kung fu fighter train to be a great fighter.
1. development of either powerful punch ( iron fist ) these requires hours of training in developing not only the power punch but the chi power to go with it. An iron fist could easily penetrate any defense or offense against an opponent breaking his rib cage, jaw, sternum or sometime the shin.
2. training include iron fingers aiming for the throat, colar bone & rib cage grabbing by sinking those powerful fingers into those gap of opennings & ripping it out.
3. iron palm, to the kidney & chest heart area. Stunning the heart causing it to stop.
4. forearm power, ability to counter kickers shin power.
5. shin power combine with powerful stance.
6. body conditioning, the ability to take punishment this include developing the neck, shoulders, stomach, chest, pecks, thighs, legs, arms & back.

Of course to achived all those one has to be a full time fighter training from dust till dawn, no destraction but pure concentration & focus, but one can only have so much time to concentrate only in some areas. It is very rare to see somebody who is a master in all those field.

One on one fighting is different with multiple attackers like in the street. In the ring its more different, fighters are condition & train within the rules of the ring or according to the style of the competition.

Muay thai or kickboxers have concentrated themselves in just kicking, punching, kneeing & elbowing with a little of twisting & tripping. And they are good at what they are tarin for. Boxers are more simple they just train for the punch & jab.

So if we are to put a muay thai against a boxer play on boxing rules. Chances are the muay thai will get cream espacially if they are up against fighters like Riberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard or even Mike Tyson.

That is why we don`t see Thai`s excelling in boxing most great boxers are from Central America espacially Cuba & the USA.

In other words every martial art is great in its own style but if your purpose is to make Muay thai as the best then either you personally go & challenge or participate in mix martial art tournament & test your skill. But you must use your muay thai skill only no combining grappling, judo, takedowns & wrestling techniques. And then after he have done that comeback & post your result here.

You said you have seen many competetion where mauy thai was always victorious against other arts. I don`t know where you seen them but so far what I have seen said the contrary. In UFC mauy thai are powerless without combining some grappling skills ,R. Gracie almost lost to a kung fu fighter 10 years ago & in the last san shou vs mauy thai competition San shou fighters won.

The only mauy thai that I witnessed won handily against other martial art style were pro muay thai vs low level TMA fighters.

And, I myself 25 yrs ago I participated in a mix martial art tournament that included some kick boxers, I didn`t got cream by them in fact I won. That is because we are all amature fighters fighting under amature rules & they were within my level.

[Thai Bri]

What was all that about? Your doing a JMD! Or maybe your getting me mixed up with someone else.

I have never said that I have seen many competitions where Thai Boxing has beaten everyone else. I have also never said that Thai Boxing is the best art. I have never, and would never, claim that Thai Boxing could defeat everyone else.

SHOW US ALL WHERE I HAVE!!!!! Like JMD, you won't be abe to. I don't know. What value is thee in trying to win an argument by pretending the other person has said certain things? It is just self defeating and stupid.

I do know of two competitions in the past whereby the Thai Boxers creamed trad Kung Fu guys. They wanted rematches without gloves, so that their "deadly" techniques could be sued. Guess what? They got creamed again. There is a style of Kung Fu tha trains fighters who can sompete against Thaiu Boxers though. It is called San Shou and, guess what! THEY USE THAI BOXING TRAINING METHODS!!!!

You are making things up about what I have said. For the record I purposefully HAVE trained grappling, as I know beyond doubt that it is an essential part of a complete fighters arsenal. I would never say that Thai Boxing is all that is needed, and I never have.

Show us all where I have. Put up or shut up.

What a pair of wankers.

[jmd161]

You really are an idiot.

You withdrew an allegation, and now make it again. Still without verification. Pathetic, unfair and idiotic.

Again, with the name calling oh well...

I won't stoop to that level again!!

Yes. Almost all MMA people came from TMAs. They had to, because that was all that was available when they started out. But they REJECTED the TMAs. Thats why MMA was invented! Because TMAs cannot hack it in a real go!!!!! And the new MMA fighters are coming up without any TMA experience whatsoever. And they are just as good as those with the TMA experence. All TMA did for the older set was to waist some of their time!

Hmmm

How do you reject TMA training when you're using TMA techniques??

Instead of using forms to remember techniques and breaking them down and then drill and training them ,they drill the techniques and applications from the start. Many different systems of doing things can end with the same out come!!

Kata - here we go again. No other physical art, be it boxing, tennis, footbal etc. etc. etc. has the equivalent of Kata. Yes, occasionally people warm up a bit against thin air........ but not with robotic, predermined, meaningless dances.

(1)You've never seen a boxer do a predetermined drill while shadow boxing?

(2)You've never seen a tennis pro walking through a practice swinging their racket in thin air?

(3)You've never seen football players walk through predetermined routes slowly without contact in practice? I believe it's called a walk thru!!

You've fallen for the TMA bull shit. Jeff, I was also in TMAs. I also tried to draw some reassurance that what I was being taught as going to help me fight if I needed to. But a visit to both a Thai Boxing gym and a ground fighting class soon dispelled that silly myth. You are wilfuly blind.

No Bri, you fell for it ,and was fooled into paying your money to ppl that ,obviously did not know what they were dong ,and you're not man enough to admit it!!

If i can't use my technique when i spar or fight then i would know i was learning BULLSHEET!!!

I don't wait and hope i'll be able to use my technique against a "real" resisting opponent. I go out right away ,and try it for myself. YOU!! ,made the mistake of following blindly not me!!!

You have finally tried to address the issue re experienced police officers and high school kids. But you misunderstood it. Maybe I didn't make myself clear, so here goes. I am comparing how both sets would fair whilst patrolling as officers. Like I said, if you "can't prepare for the streets", the students are in no more danger. But, whilst I think of it, you can also compare them in how they just walk around in every day life. Imagine they are both asked to walk around a city - no uniforms etc., just normal clothes. Who is in most danger, and why?

The student is in more danger ,not because of the experience of the officer ,but because the fact they are young and not experienced in anything. Kids think they are untouchable they don't fear things happening to themselves ,because they always think it will happen to someone else. so that's not a fair comparison.

The students are, because they have not had the experience and training of the officers, they have not had the same preparation of the streets. Durrrr........

Anyway, like i've said any training is better than none. But it does not make you prepared!! There are alot of varibles in why street violence ,and crime happens. If you put an average size male cop on the street in plain clothes ,and a jock type football player in plain cloths on the street. Who has a greater chance of being attacked?

The cop!!

people on the street that commit crime look for easy targets. A 5'9" 160 lb male is alot more likely to be attacked than a 6'3" 220 lb jock type. A 5'1" 110lb female is 250% more likely to be attacked than either man.

So try again to answer the question, as hopefully you now understand it.

Yes , i understand the question ,but being prepared for the street is not a simple yes or no answer. Or a this is right or that is wrong answer. Each event has a different and varied way of being resolved.

ps - I look forward to more inventive mis quotes that never took place......

Old habbits are VERY hard to break huh Bri?!?! You're always looking for some way to try ,and provoke a heated response.

It's all good ,i won't be drawn into that stuff anymore!!

jeff

[Thai Bri]

No mate. Forms to "train and drill" techniques are nothing like as effective as striking aids and partners. This of someone practising tennis without an opponent, racquet or ball. Not too good, is it!

"(1)You've never seen a boxer do a predetermined drill while shadow boxing?

(2)You've never seen a tennis pro walking through a practice swinging their racket in thin air?

(3)You've never seen football players walk through predetermined routes slowly without contact in practice? I believe it's called a walk thru!!"

Boxers 2-3 punch combinations, tennis players warming up and football players practicing a play that their coach has designed for them are not related to Katas at all. Where are the lengthy pre determined moves that must be done in an exact manner each and every time? Nowhere. Go to any boxing gym and show them a Kata. Ask them if they do anything similar. Desparate.

"I don't wait and hope i'll be able to use my technique against a "real" resisting opponent. I go out right away ,and try it for myself. YOU!! ,made the mistake of following blindly not me!!!"

Interesting. Tell me more. But I can feel my Fantasy Detector kicking in! Haw haw haw!


So, you finally managed to admit that the student is in danger. But only becasue they havent experienced anything...... So, of course, they have less preparation. You just can't bring yourself to say the P word! Les change it then. How about 2 forty year olds. One is the trained and experienced street cop, and the other was a florist..... Which is in most danger now? Durrrrrrrr.

"If you put an average size male cop on the street in plain clothes ,and a jock type football player in plain cloths on the street. Who has a greater chance of being attacked?

The cop!!

people on the street that commit crime look for easy targets. A 5'9" 160 lb male is alot more likely to be attacked than a 6'3" 220 lb jock type. A 5'1" 110lb female is 250% more likely to be attacked than either man."

Here, we are getting close to the nub of it. You may learn something. No Jeff. A well trained and experienced street cop will do a great many things that an unpreapred individual will not. He will not go into dangerous areas. He will be aware of people who are near and may cause a threat. He will back away from developing situations. He will be more able to talk his way out of trouble. He will be more able to make an effective pr emptive strike. Etc etc etc. This is whee your lack of knowledge is. You have no appreciation of the psychological and territorial issues at all. Thats why you think its all down to the size of the dog in the fight. Durrrrrrrrr.

"Yes , i understand the question ,but being prepared for the street is not a simple yes or no answer. Or a this is right or that is wrong answer. Each event has a different and varied way of being resolved."

It is a simple yes or no answer. The person who is prepared is quicker to spot potential trouble. He is quicker to formulate a plan to deal with it, and he is quicker at effectively implementing that plan. The unprepared walks forwards into danger.

Its not unsimilar to driving a car. Of course anything can happen on the road, and anyone can be involved in a crash. But the guy with the best training and experience is far far less likely to do so. It really is as simple as that.

You knob.

[konghan]

What was all that about? Your doing a JMD! Or maybe your getting me mixed up with someone else.

I have never said that I have seen many competitions where Thai Boxing has beaten everyone else. I have also never said that Thai Boxing is the best art. I have never, and would never, claim that Thai Boxing could defeat everyone else.

SHOW US ALL WHERE I HAVE!!!!! Like JMD, you won't be abe to. I don't know. What value is thee in trying to win an argument by pretending the other person has said certain things? It is just self defeating and stupid.

I do know of two competitions in the past whereby the Thai Boxers creamed trad Kung Fu guys. They wanted rematches without gloves, so that their "deadly" techniques could be sued. Guess what? They got creamed agaien. There is a style of Kung Fu tha trains fighters who can sompete against Thaiu Boxers though. It is called San Shou and, guess what! THEY USE THAI BOXING TRAINING METHODS!!!!

You are making things up about what I have said. For the record I purposefully HAVE trained grappling, as I know beyond doubt that it is an essential part of a complete fighters arsenal. I would never say that Thai Boxing is all that is needed, and I never have.

Show us all where I have. Put up or shut up.

What a pair of wankers.

You emphasie thai boxing all the time don`t you? & you attack TMA all time too right? you even claim that san shou is a copy cat of muay thai right?

San shou training has nothing to do with thai training, san shou just did what many original kung fu fighters do & that is pick up some of the best techinques in kung fu form & train at it. San shou is kung fu version of commercialised ring tournament as mauy thai have their own version. Kung fu in its pure form is only what san shou is. Kick for kick kung fu kickers can match well against muay thai.

The Chinese goverment have realised now that with the poresence of modern weaponry, kung fu is no longer a big threat as they were use to be but that all martial arts have been regulated to tournament sports.

So with a revitalization of true & pure kung fu the martial art world is waking up to its true power. Disgruntle TMA people are just to traumatize & fustrated that they didn`t got the right training in kung fu before that there only emotional outlet is thru unwanted criticism.

Bruce Lee was also a good example, I don`t think he was satisfied with his wing chun training that he went to China to learn more of kung fu. In fact in the movie Enter the Dragon, there`s one segment there that show Bruce Lee in a "san shou type of competetion against the actor Samo Hung. Where in Bruce got caught in a arm- head lock on the ground that he has to "bite" his way out of it.

Bri, I beleive you need to consult a shrink to cure that fustration of yours on TMA.