TMAs VS. Reality based self-defense

[AlexJitsu]

Hey, Hsing Yi Ch'uan is extremely effective and it's a TMA. It's based on principles and it was taught to the Chinese military in the 1920s. What else do you need?

[sherwinc]

[QUOTE=konghan]

here is a good example:

if this Ang Li Sing knows 200 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun, he teach it to my kungfu instructor......

then my KungFu instructor knows at least 100 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun, he teach it to us........

then i know only 55 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun, then i'll teach it to my selected students of mine.....

example if my best students only knows 25 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun......

Note:
so you see?????? KungFu begins to deteriorate while passing the art to his students..... since we are only human, the student cant get all our kungfu knowledge.......

Note:
now, if you compare it to Muay Thai, Western Boxing, etc..... these arts BEFORE and till NOW, they are still the same (still 6 hand alphabets) no deterioration....... since the students of these arts can easily study and can easily get all of the alphabets since it is easy to learn and easy to ______ .

Note:
the thing that really impressed me with this KungFu even thou i am a solid 100% Filipino..... is that, i cant even hit my KungFu instructor even just once i cant hit him even thou how advanced forcefull hand combinations i did..... and why is it that when we spar with my non-kungfu sparring partner (particularly Karate and Tae Kwon Do) the ratio of hits is 2:22

so i am really convinced with the Non-commercialized KungFu Arts.....

Note:
seriously speaking, the more techniques you learn and mastered it..... the more you have the advantages..... just be sure that all of your hand and feet combinations are not telegraphed to the opponents eye......

but still i cant hit my kungfu instructor.....

[Broadsword2004]

Hey Sherwinc, what do you mean "karate is not good in a streetfight" and "worst of all is the tae kwon do!?" sheesh, karate is very effective for plain old bare-knuckle stuff (provided the person is a "real" karateka and not one of these phony-balonies); karate also utilizes both standup and groundfighting techniques. Sheesh, if you get hit by a good karate person with a kick or a punch, it is no laughing matter.

As for TKD, that is like the same as karate. Remember, a kick is a kick. Unless you are doing a jump spin kick or something, getting wacked by the forceful kick of someone else's leg is gonna hurt. And a punch is a punch. Both karate and taekwondo deliver their kicks fairly well.

The only time a karate person may end up in trouble in a streetfight is if they are against a person who is a better martial artist then they are (which is unlikely I think if they train hard), or if the person has a weapon. and even then, it still depends. John Bluming, a karateka of Mas Oyama, was in a streetfight where the guy pulled a knife and he just knocked it right out of the guy's hand (though it was a small knife); also, he was in a fight where a guy wacked him right in the ankle with a crowbar or something, upon which he punched the guy in the side of the head and knocked off his ear because his knuckles were so hardened up and he was mad about being hit.

Karate alone won't make one into a full-ranged fighter, but it will give very solid skills in punching, striking, kicking, and grappling.

[sherwinc]

Hey Sherwinc, what do you mean "karate is not good in a streetfight" and "worst of all is the tae kwon do!?" sheesh, karate is very effective for plain old bare-knuckle stuff (provided the person is a "real" karateka and not one of these phony-balonies); karate also utilizes both standup and groundfighting techniques. Sheesh, if you get hit by a good karate person with a kick or a punch, it is no laughing matter.

As for TKD, that is like the same as karate. Remember, a kick is a kick. Unless you are doing a jump spin kick or something, getting wacked by the forceful kick of someone else's leg is gonna hurt. And a punch is a punch. Both karate and taekwondo deliver their kicks fairly well.

The only time a karate person may end up in trouble in a streetfight is if they are against a person who is a better martial artist then they are (which is unlikely I think if they train hard), or if the person has a weapon. and even then, it still depends. John Bluming, a karateka of Mas Oyama, was in a streetfight where the guy pulled a knife and he just knocked it right out of the guy's hand (though it was a small knife); also, he was in a fight where a guy wacked him right in the ankle with a crowbar or something, upon which he punched the guy in the side of the head and knocked off his ear because his knuckles were so hardened up and he was mad about being hit.

Karate alone won't make one into a full-ranged fighter, but it will give very solid skills in punching, striking, kicking, and grappling.

because plenty of the members here under-estimated the Traditional Martial Arts (TMA).....

in Traditional Martial Arts - KungFu is the main source.......

Karate came from KungFu....
Tae Kwon Do came from Karate also cause their Poomse #1 and Kihon Kata #1 looks like the same...... so, karate is superior to tae kwon do.....

Note:

in a Xerox Copier, Selex Copier, etc.....
KungFu is the ORIGINAL COPY and the main source.... while Karate and Tae Kwon Do is the RE-COPY only..........

so, ORIGINAL is always the best...... than a RE-COPY....

[Broadsword2004]

Yes, karate definitely came from kung fu, but I wasn't saying karate is superior to kung fu arts (though to some I think it is). As for TKD, to me, karate and taekwondo are the exact same thing, just done a bit differently.

If you study kung fu and karate, they can be close or very different, depending on the kung fu you train, but if you train karate and TKD, you basically are doing the same stuff, just with different positions. Karate and TKD have the same strikes, kicks, punches, blocks, etc...

[sherwinc]

Yes, karate definitely came from kung fu, but I wasn't saying karate is superior to kung fu arts (though to some I think it is). As for TKD, to me, karate and taekwondo are the exact same thing, just done a bit differently.

If you study kung fu and karate, they can be close or very different, depending on the kung fu you train, but if you train karate and TKD, you basically are doing the same stuff, just with different positions. Karate and TKD have the same strikes, kicks, punches, blocks, etc...

very true...........

[Toudiyama[NL]]

in a Xerox Copier, Selex Copier, etc.....
KungFu is the ORIGINAL COPY and the main source.... while Karate and Tae Kwon Do is the RE-COPY only..........

so, ORIGINAL is always the best...... than a RE-COPY....

But in MA we do not just copy, we enhance, in digital a copy is just as good as the original
See Karate as a Digital copy of a Picturefile, which is enhanced using Photoshop, the end result isn't a copy nor is it better or worse, it is different ( maybe better for certain uses but not all)
Now for some Styles/arts we have taken 2 or more sourcepictures to make a new picture ( thus I get pictures of any respected Martial Artists handing me a black Belt)

TKD has a base of Shotokan Karate which the koreans won't admid to, this is the all Kata no Bunkai or Kumite Shotokan from before WW II, this is watered down Karate At best.

BTW it is mainly Naha-te that has clearly traceble roots in Wu xi quan/Ngo cho kun, I can't say where the roots of Shuri-te lie

Very few styles are a only a copy of another style, if they are, the main reason that it is another "style" is because the founder of it wasn't allowed to use the name of the original style, usualy because they were considered NOT to be capable enough
The other reason is greed and hunger for Power

[sherwinc]

But in MA we do not just copy, we enhance, in digital a copy is just as good as the original
See Karate as a Digital copy of a Picturefile, which is enhanced using Photoshop, the end result isn't a copy nor is it better or worse, it is different ( maybe better for certain uses but not all)
Now for some Styles/arts we have taken 2 or more sourcepictures to make a new picture ( thus I get pictures of any respected Martial Artists handing me a black Belt)

here in the Philippine, for example in a your Birth Certificate.......

the Original Birth Certificate is honored rather than a Xerox Copied Birth Certificate......

another example......

when you sell your land property to someone else..... the Original Land Title is honered rather than a Xerox Copied Land Title......

another example:
God made man thru is own image.....

God - Original Copy
Man - Xerox Copy

question:
is there any reasons for a man to become superior to God even thou God made man thru his own image????????

since:
KungFu - Original Copy
Karate - a Xerox Copy
TaeKwonDo - another Xerox Copy from a Xerox Copied Source

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Sherwinc, if you don't read my posts, please do not reply to them, I explained in MA you can't speak of COPY

KF= Original which is fixed and therefore can't evolve or change
Karate=enhanced digital copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations
TKD=analog copy of a partial copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations

Although the original source material might have been watered down, this doesn't say anything about what is better

Oh and don't talk god to an atheist, I am no copy of a figment of the imagination

[chris davis 200]

Hi all

I havnt read all the posts but i see a Glaring and extremely obvious flaw in your argument.

A) you are grouping all 'so called' traditional martial arts with the Karate system you practiced.

B) Many traditional martial arts are extremely effective fighting systems - lets take Muay thai, Kali, escrima, etc as but a few! You freely admit that they are so where is the line drawn on what is and is not a Traditional Martial art.

Please define traditional Martial Arts so that we can descuss this subject with an idea of where you are coming from.

Last time we spoke about TMA's the guy that started the thread said he ment arts that walk up and down dojos punching air, ones where there were forms, ones where there was pressure points etc. Needless to say he had NEVER seen traditional Martial arts!!

I think that in the west, as was so elliquently pointed out by Krys, there are so so many mc dojo's and modern 'traditional' styles that it is fairly hard to find, let alone comment on the real traditional martial arts with defined and proper lineages!

For example - Ju Jutsu in the uk is mainly based on the style of Robert Clark, with nearly all schools originating with him in some way.

When you bear in mind that there is NO evidence that he ever trained in Ju Jutsu!!!! but actually it is strongly believed that he used 'dirty' judo (by dirty i mean judo mixed with some Karate some kung fu and some aikido) The Largest organisations for Ju Jutsu in the UK are not actually practicing Ju Jutsu! and yet people try to comment on Ju Jutsu!!!!

See my point -

the same is often true in the States with seemingly huge and well founded organisations not actually practicing the traditional methods they claim to use and be masters of!

This is partly the reason i laugh when i see people trying to comment on Traditional Methods. they are very hard to find let alone study for long enough to form an opinion and comment.

I have been very lucky in that i have been able to find some real traditional systems in the UK (but i have to travel along way and use alot of resources to!!) - after going through modern systems and arts - including modern self defence classes and mc dojos.

In my honest opinion - i would have to say that nothing has come close to the traditional arts i now practice, for preperation of mindset, ability to fight, or hardness and intensity of training.

People often think that the advent of modern scientific methods has given modern artists the edge - but if you look at many of the older training methods you will find that the develop the same things as the modern ones - with some additions - including will power, body control etc etc. these things you dont often forge in a Gym!

An interesting summery on the comparison between Karate and Modern combatives none the less.

Kindest regards
chris

[Uncle Corny]

had sherwinc compared kung fu to fried chicken i might have bought it. but no. he had to use xerox machines. for shame.

[krys]

.........................
Why?

Well, in Okinawa there are all those pretty big eyed girls jk......

More seriously I think karate is practiced differently in Okinawa than in the local club because:

1) Most karate found in local clubs is Japanese karate and not Okinawanese karate.

2) Okinawanese peoples practice the arts nowadays called karate for centuries, this training became part of their culture and they can show more dedication than the average western student who seldom studies it it for more than self defence or a hobby. They tend to show more patience than many western students who often look for shortcuts and want to learn self defense quickly. This often leads to poor technique and injuries. In my opinion one needs to show some interest in a ma's culture to understand it's principles and respect the traditional training, unfortunately this is seldom the case in the local club.

3) Many instructors wether they went to Okinawa or not didn't see the whole pattern or interpreted wrongly what was taught to them.

[darrianation]

Chris,

I began my Martial arts training in 1977, and since this time I have trained in the TMAs of Karate, Chinese kenpo, TKD (just a little),and Arnis (*Arnis the most practical of the four). I have also studied martial sport systems such as Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, a little judo, and a little submission wrestling as well as ROSS.(more closely related to RBSD) I have also studied military combatives, civilian combatives, RBSD, as well as counter terrorism tactics.

I have trained in a TMA art in 6 states, and 3 countries including Japan for 6 weeks. I have been into and watched or participated in many other MA schools including Kung Fu systems. I have trained under a 6th dan who was born and raised in Japan and studied/taught in Japan for 20 years before coming to the U.S.I studied approx 3.5 years under him and all we did was the same format every day- warm up/stretch, floor work, kata, spar. The sparring was the one dimensional tag sparring of witch I described earlier.

I studied under a 5th dan in Okinawa Karate who had been doing it for 25 years and went to Okinawa for a year to study. Although she was incredibly smart, knowledgeable, and creative we did nothing but the usual, floor work, kata, bunki, pre-determined attacks and tag style sparring. Only on occasion did we break from that format.

I studied under another 5th degree black who had trained in Okinawa, and went to China for three years to study MAs and Chinese medicine and had made several trips to the shaolin temple. Under him we never even sparred, we would do kata all session long with maybe some pre-arranged and per-determined drills thrown in. We would spend 30 minutes (or longer) performing a single kata because he was such a perfectionist he would go down the line correcting everyone with each move. It was ridicules. And no one in that class could fight worth a damn. I soon found another place to study, but once again I had to change styles.

Are all these fake commercialized MAs? I think there is some truth to that theory but I think that every time someone sees, or exposes a problem with a martial art they are quick turn to the “it’s fake or commercialized” argument. The above instructors as well as their students who have been with them for several years had no clue of the inefficient methods of teaching they were doing and of course neither did I at the time.

I have been to and watched several KF sessions. Even though their format was different they still did the forms, they still did the pre-arranged drills, the same pre-determined drills and the one-dimensional tag style of sparring. They also did forms and pre-arranged sparring with non-real-world-appropriate weapons. It may have looked different but make no mistake it was essentially functionally the same. I have also had friends who studied these arts and after going with them to training sessions and having long conversations only confirmed what I have been saying.

Unfortunately I have met, studied with, and taught many students who had several years in one of these MAs and still could not really fight well. Some of them might have been good at tournament fighting but not real fighting.

I think it’s incorrect for Konghan s to say that RBSD is a short cut I think that the TMAs is the long cut. RBSD builds incredibly skilled and effective fighters in a much faster time while maintaining a high quality of instruction. Honestly I think many TMA guys make these kind of arguments because they are struggling to argue the relevancy of their systems and really don’t realize that what they have been taught for so many years is built upon a some faulty assumptions, and bad science. They, just like me once upon a time, just don’t know any better, or they are simply, but understandably in denial.

[jubaji]

Hey, Hsing Yi Ch'uan is extremely effective and it's a TMA. It's based on principles and it was taught to the Chinese military in the 1920s. What else do you need?

Considering what became of the Chinese military of the 1920's, that's not saying much.

[krys]

KF= Original which is fixed and therefore can't evolve or change

Good KF is about principles not techniques.... understanding the principles and getting a good control over yout body allows you to cope with any situation....