can kung fu work in real fighting????

[JadeDragon]

posted by jmd.......
This has truth, but is not totally true. How many different styles do you think masters use to know? The answer is far less than you may think. Most masters barely knew their own style completely much less many other styles. The average master usually just mastered 1-4 sets of their chosen style. This does not mean they only new 1-4 forms, but that they truly worked these forms and knew them inside out. It takes yrs of very hard work and training to truly master a form. Because one is a master within a style does not mean they have mastered that style. That is why the journey in kung fu is considered a life long journey. Many people believe that theses masters were like the movies and would switch from tiger to monkey to snake as needed to beat an opponent, that is far from the truth. While many styles do have animal sets... they were not used in quite that manor.


So what about Shaolin do and thier Grandmaster who claims to know and have master over 900+ forms. And mastered 600 of them by age 25? Unheard of.

[jmd161]

I know very well what you speak of as Black Tiger was created from So Hak Fu's knowledge of seventeen different styles and what he learned from Shaolin. I also know a lot about Hung Gar as Black Tiger and Hung Gar as well as Hung Fut are sister styles and share many of the same techniques and in some cases forms.

But this goes back to what I was saying. Times were different back then...there was no tv, radio, clubs etc..

Many of those masters had the time to train and only train for hrs a day. My sifu started learning Hakl Fu Mun at age 13 after already growing up learning Hung Gar from his grandfather and Choy Lay Fut from his uncle. Even so, my sifu will tell you he has not even come close to mastering Black Tiger and that is all he's studied for the last 45yrs or so. These masters had knowledge of many forms, but they were not masters of all these styles.

My sigung was considered a master of Hung Gar, Hung Fut, Hak Fu Mun, Bagua, Wing Chun, and several other styles. Yet he only really taught Hak Fu Mun. My sigung learned from masters like Bak Mou Jiu and Knew Wong Fei Hung personally having learned from a disciple of WFH, just to name a few. He spent 70yrs of his life learning kung fu and he still did not consider himself a master of Hak Fu Mun, even though he had to teach it in 1/3's just so the style would not die with him. There are over 120 forms within Black Tiger.

When you reach the level of my sifu or sigung, just knowing these forms means a lot, but it by no means makes them masters of these styles. They may have mastered only a few forms from each and know the other forms.


jeff

[jubaji]

When I practice I try to learn how to fight against many different kinds of attackers. I may have a student who is good at boxing attack me with fast hands and blows. Then I need to react differently, to a person who uses alot of kicks etc etc etc. Last week I had a wrestler attack me with his style and in seconds he saw how he would have been seriously injured. he tried again and this time he went flying on his back. By the way he tried the shoot technique at me, and he was as fast as I have seen any person be, he was a skilled wrestler. But kung Fu worked perfectly against his fighting style. I have also had attacks from people who were kick boxers and very aggressive. the snake style worked very good with them, etc etc. I have had boxers come in as fast as they could trying to hit me, and with a few subtle blocks and attacks they were effortlessly overcome. Kung Fu works all the time if you use it right.

Jeff, disregard this fool. Every couple of weeks he "just defeated" a wrestler or a boxer or an MMA fighter, and always with great ease under Saturday morning cartoon circumstances.

He's just another LARPer.

[jubaji]

So what about Shaolin do and thier Grandmaster who claims to know and have master over 900+ forms. And mastered 600 of them by age 25? Unheard of.

Ok, ok, Jethro, we get it. How many times are you gonna repeat the same damn thing over and over?

[jmd161]

So what about Shaolin do and thier Grandmaster who claims to know and have master over 900+ forms. And mastered 600 of them by age 25? Unheard of.

Well, first of all...

I've seen Shaolin-Do forms...even their so called Black Tiger forms.
Their forms are not Shaolin or even Shaolin like. Many of their forms are just a set of small movements and are more kata than form. For him to say he mastered over 900 forms and over 600 by 25?

I would call BS!

I have seen Sin The' move and he does not move well at all. My sifu at nearly 60 would put Sin The' to shame..hell he put's many people to shame. LOL

Shaolin-Do is akin to karate more than kung fu. That's about as far as I want to go with that.


jeff

[jmd161]

Jeff, disregard this fool. Every couple of weeks he "just defeated" a wrestler or a boxer or an MMA fighter, and always with great ease under Saturday morning cartoon circumstances.

He's just another LARPer.

LOL

I roll as much as I can with BJJ/MMA people and have had some success...I've also been tapped by BJJ/MMA people. I take it for what it's worth, I don't think it makes me any better than the next person I roll with. I've seen wht belts tap purple belts and blue belts tap black belts...does that make them better?

Not really...

So much goes into it that it makes no sense to even think about it. The best fighter doesn't always win. Some people present more of a challenge then others because they are a better fit to your fighting style. Others you will beat because you are in better shape or have better technique or more experience.

One thing is a given though...no matter how good you are, there is Always someone better!

jeff

[TigerClaw]

Jeff, disregard this fool. Every couple of weeks he "just defeated" a wrestler or a boxer or an MMA fighter, and always with great ease under Saturday morning cartoon circumstances.

He's just another LARPer.

No, just disregard jubaji, he really is annoying and he has been bugging people here for a while, he also is a liar and attacks Kung Fu teachers knowing very little himself about Kung Fu .

[pstevens]

[QUOTE=TigerClaw;318389]Forms are fondational in Kung Fu. If they are from a good system, that has been combat tested , which many kung fu style have been. QUOTE]

I have to disagree with you and JadeDragon on this matter; because it forms the basis of which this entire argument is based. Martial arts which are combat tested would work; we would see it work and we (particularly myself) wouldn't have a problem with it. Therefore, my argument is that many (not all) kung-fu styles don't work; because they've never been combat tested.

Actually, the first part of TigerClaw's argument is correct. IF the forms WERE functional, then the art would be as well. But this isn't true of many kung-fu styles. YES, I believe there are useful kung-fu styles, training methods and such, but within the spectrum of martial arts kung-fu ranks poorly, in my opinion. I found TKD and karate one step closer to actual fighting.

Functional forms of martial arts like MT, BJJ and boxing work most days of the week and can be witnessed to be effective against most attacks in a live setting.

Actually, I'd like to retract a point I made earlier... Forms training isn't useless, as all martial arts (including BJJ, boxing, MT) use forms training. It's the manner in which the forms are used and the type of forms used. Here's an example of 2 different types of forms training; one useful and the other less useful.

Example 1: Choylifut scooping fist to mirror block and reverse punch. The objective is to lift the attackers kick, block his secondary attack with an outward block and perform a reverse punch. The problem is the footwork takes a lot of time to transition from the cat stance to the stanted horse stance, etc... In a real situation, I doubt anyone would bother... I think they would simply perform the blocks and attack. In fact, I've seen people not commit themselves to the stances.

Example 2: BJJ upa to elbow escape to scissors sweep. The purpose is to escape the mounted position using a combination of 2 escapes, then perform a sweep. In actual sparring or combat, the person underneath would actually perform these movements. This being my point. Actual movements being drilled, then tested in actual sparring, means more efficiency.

While there are many stories of kung-fu prowess in fighting like Wong Fei Hung, I just don't buy most of it; because few of it can be displayed today. Unlike kung-fu, the BJJers of today are improving upon on the past. I don't doubt that most BJJer, MT guys and boxers of today have advantages over their predecessors. This isn't true in kung-fu where all people talk about is how much greater the masters of old were and yet no one can replicate their "defeating 20 opponents" anymore.

[TigerClaw]

I have to disagree with you and JadeDragon on this matter; because it forms the basis of which this entire argument is based. Martial arts which are combat tested would work; we would see it work and we (particularly myself) wouldn't have a problem with it. Therefore, my argument is that many (not all) kung-fu styles don't work; because they've never been combat tested.

What do you mean you haven't seen them tested. Most of the Kung Fu masters of the world that are very good at fighting you wont see on the you tube or the net particularly. It seems that some base what THEY HAVE SEEN, on a few examples on a you tube or something similar.

There is so much that you have not seen and will never see.

You must define your exposure to real kung fu and what you base your statements on. You also paint with a large brush against Kung Fu.

[pstevens]

What do you mean you haven't seen them tested. Most of the Kung Fu masters of the world that are very good at fighting you wont see on the you tube or the net particularly. It seems that some base what THEY HAVE SEEN, on a few examples on a you tube or something similar.

Exactly. You won't see them or hear about them until they've died and their fighting prowess are told in kung-fu legends. They're about as elusive as bigfoot and less visible than the lochness monster.

Just messing with you... But my point is this; "show me an angel and I'll paint one" (Courbet). It's a metaphor for what kung-fu fighters have become - myth, legend and folklore.

[TigerClaw]

Exactly. You won't see them or hear about them until they've died and their fighting prowess are told in kung-fu legends. They're about as elusive as bigfoot and less visible than the lochness monster.

Just messing with you... But my point is this; "show me an angel and I'll paint one" (Courbet). It's a metaphor for what kung-fu fighters have become - myth, legend and folklore.

No, I have seen some of these fighters. I have seen one of my masters fight a few people at a time on his back. I also saw him overcome a person with two swords and he was bare handed and disarmed the man and had the man on his back with the swords at his throat.

there are still many kung Fu fighters who are amazing in the world. Some of us have seen them.

[pstevens]

No, I have seen some of these fighters. I have seen one of my masters fight a few people at a time on his back. I also saw him overcome a person with two swords and he was bare handed and disarmed the man and had the man on his back with the swords at his throat.

there are still many kung Fu fighters who are amazing in the world. Some of us have seen them.

Yeah, but you're missing the point... That you've seen these incredible things doesn't really hold any weight. In fact, it's just hearsay. I could easily say that I saw an elephant fly, but it wouldn't mean a damn thing because it's not provable in a realistic context.

However, I will say that you can see good fighters mix it up in MMA fights and these guys can really fight in the context of sports fighting; some of which can translate into real street fighting: Bas Rutten, Lee Murray, Renzo Gracie, to name a few have many street fighting experiences... In these instances, the burden of proof isn't too hard to find because:

1. They have used their fighting styles in professionally sanctioned events against world-class fighters, or at least opponents.

2. Their bouts are recorded and documented; and can be viewed by anyone who's willing.

3. In many cases, a record, report or video exists showing the effectiveness of their fighting prowess in street confrontations.

4. They would be willing to come forth and acknowledge their fighting credentials and disprove naysayers.

Now, if the masters you speak of can meet these criterias; that would be a start in the right direction.

[Ben Grimm]

He's LARPing again. Ask him why he got booted from BudoSeek, Dragonslist and other forums....

[jubaji]

No, I have seen some of these fighters. I have seen one of my masters fight a few people at a time on his back. I also saw him overcome a person with two swords and he was bare handed and disarmed the man and had the man on his back with the swords at his throat.

And...and...he had his eyes closed...and...and...both his arms were broken at the time...and...one of them had kryptonite...and...

[Ben Grimm]

Not the dreaded kryptonite, lol! It seems that TigerClown is suffering from the "My Sifu is God Syndrome."