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UNARMED VS KNIFE

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#17
mike: 'incident if not accident' is an awesome way to phrase it, from my humble experience. i told my fight partner that if you can find an armlock, you can find a disarm..because he already has some experience finding locks while we fight.. i think the tao of jeet kune do says that while fighting, you concentrate on striking. while fighting with a man and striking each other, a lock will eventually present ITSELF. if you are looking for a lock, and trying to make it happen, you get beat on..severely. however, if you are in th emoment trying to beat the man, you'll find yourself halfway to a lock position, and merely have to complete the rest of it to finish it. locks frequently just sort of happen..you just have to recognize the position and help it along..

I think the same thing goes for disarms..

The only disarm we've actually completed in a fight with our weapons was a roof block/shield to enter and then snake.. and "hold it and hit it"..

but..that's probably just where our level of skill has taken us so far..

-dwayne

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  • #18
    Originally posted by quietanswer
    mike: 'incident if not accident' is an awesome way to phrase it, from my humble experience. i told my fight partner that if you can find an armlock, you can find a disarm..because he already has some experience finding locks while we fight.. i think the tao of jeet kune do says that while fighting, you concentrate on striking. while fighting with a man and striking each other, a lock will eventually present ITSELF. if you are looking for a lock, and trying to make it happen, you get beat on..severely. however, if you are in th emoment trying to beat the man, you'll find yourself halfway to a lock position, and merely have to complete the rest of it to finish it. locks frequently just sort of happen..you just have to recognize the position and help it along..

    I think the same thing goes for disarms..

    The only disarm we've actually completed in a fight with our weapons was a roof block/shield to enter and then snake.. and "hold it and hit it"..

    but..that's probably just where our level of skill has taken us so far..

    -dwayne
    Absolutely! Locks, disarms, sweeps/throws are all related in this regard. First, if you go for any of them without some tenderizing, then the guy will still have his brain and be able to counter pretty easily. Second, if you focus too much on finding any of them, then you will likely be beaten into a pulp before finding it.

    As for you finding the snake in fighting ... that's partially because it's one of the easiest to find. It's also one of the easiest to counter ... so if you haven't properly tenderized him (i.e.: beat the tar out of him) you're not likely to get the disarm or even hold on to his arm for long.

    A snake is most commonly found when you get smashed in the ribs. Your body naturally clamps down to protect the ribs and if their stick hasn't retracted yet, then you have a snake disarm sitting their if you're quick enough to get it :-)

    Regards, Mike

    Comment

    • #19
      agreed?

      so do we all agree that the K.I.S.S. principle applies to disarms (along with the tenderization principle) ?

      Comment

      • #20
        Re: agreed?

        Originally posted by Chop Wisby
        so do we all agree that the K.I.S.S. principle applies to disarms (along with the tenderization principle) ?
        Yup. I think so. In fact, I think that K.I.S.S. should be applied to all of martial arts (and, for that matter, life in general :-)

        However, I don't know that training can always be K.I.S.S. There are drills and such which are rather complex ... but which build attributes to improve your effectiveness at applying K.I.S.S. techniques.

        My instructor calls a lot of what we do in Kali "simplex" which means that it's really very simple and based on very simple principles ... but that it's complex to learn. I think disarms fall into this category.

        Also, we should always strive toward zero-tolerance in our training. By this, I mean that we always look for the ideal in our body mechanics and execution in our training. We should strive for 150% in training. The closer something is to perfection in training, the better our chances of pulling it off in a real fight are.

        Due to adrenaline, endorphins, stress, and other factors, our ability to perform degenerates in a real fight. So, let's say that a particular technique requires 85% of perfect execution to work. If you only train to that 85% then when you get in a fight and your ability degrades ... even if it only degrades by 1%, then you're not going to be able to pull that technique off. If, however, you've trained it so that you can routinely do it at 95% in training, now you've got a margin of 10% degredation. This may still not be enough ... but it's something :-)

        So, while we can never be perfect, we should always strive toward perfection in training. "The more we sweat in training, the less we bleed in reality."

        Regards, Mike

        Comment

          • #21
          k.i.s.s.

          I agree wholeheartedly...except-

          while attending a highly competitive judo school, i found that lots of throws I never believed could be applied were extremely applicable, to the person who knows them. most of my throw training was static prior to this class, and even when we fought, the opening/setup was something you had to learn to stumble into.. but these guys were doing throws i had long ago written off as crap throws..things far too complex to be useful in an 'actual fight'. uchi mata was one of those throws. these guys made the throws look different somehow..somehow easy. most of them had wrestled highschool and college.. or they had similar priors before even finding judo.. i think that helped a lot.

          what i'm saying is that i fully believe in keeping everything very simple.but i think some things that first look complex (due to persepctive) can be shown to actually be simple in the end.. so it's hard to use kiss as a rule when picking out what techniques to learn...as your idea of simple may change as you learn the technique better..or more thoroughly..

          -dwayne
          back from a working vacation..had classes..bet this place was dull without me.

          Comment

          • #22
            Re: k.i.s.s.

            Originally posted by quietanswer
            I agree wholeheartedly...except-

            while attending a highly competitive judo school, i found that lots of throws I never believed could be applied were extremely applicable, to the person who knows them. most of my throw training was static prior to this class, and even when we fought, the opening/setup was something you had to learn to stumble into.. but these guys were doing throws i had long ago written off as crap throws..things far too complex to be useful in an 'actual fight'. uchi mata was one of those throws. these guys made the throws look different somehow..somehow easy. most of them had wrestled highschool and college.. or they had similar priors before even finding judo.. i think that helped a lot.

            what i'm saying is that i fully believe in keeping everything very simple.but i think some things that first look complex (due to persepctive) can be shown to actually be simple in the end.. so it's hard to use kiss as a rule when picking out what techniques to learn...as your idea of simple may change as you learn the technique better..or more thoroughly..

            -dwayne
            back from a working vacation..had classes..bet this place was dull without me.
            Absolutely! Silat often seems very complex at first. However, while it seems complicated (and is somewhat complicated in training), it's founded on KISS principles and when applied, these principles are what come out. However, it takes a lot of development and training to get to that point. Once you're there, though, it works and it is KISS once you start understanding it. I would guess that these Judo guys have done the same thing with their Judo.

            Regards, Mike

            Comment

            • #23
              knife disarms: ouch!

              so did anybody read the thread i suggested?

              just curious.

              Comment

                • #24
                the thread is still worth seeing, but I wanted to grab and post the juiciest part (imo). I hope this doesn't offend anyone or violate any forum policies. This is Protector speaking in this quote, and it's drawn from http://www.bladeforum.com:
                -----------------------------
                "The current technique that I teach as a primary defense, and that is taught at our state police academy, is a variation on the Kali/Silat dive entry. To understand this, picture a BG throwing a straight right punch at your chin. You bring both hands and arms up like you are about to dive into a pool, hands together, elbows out a little and head tucked, using the arms for cover. The punch would deflect off your left arm and the hands snapping out, combined with a brisk step in, would strike to the face, throat or maybe a shoulder stop, depending on the situation. The key here is to combine the step in and arm movement for a deep drive, that snaps the head back.

                To change this into a knife defense you just change the arm position a little. If the knife is coming down or in on an FMA angle 1 (high right, coming down) the left arm drifts out enough to deflect the arm coming down and the right hand goes to the face. Your drive should snap the head back, maybe even knock the BG on his butt. If you picure 100% of your energy going forward, maybe 15% goes into the deflection and 85% to the BG's head. The strike is an open palm strike and when you make contact your fingers are attempting to gouge/scratch eyes and do other damage also. In training with attackers in FIST and Redman suits, if you do the initial strike right, the knife doesn't get to the intended target or doesn't have enough energy to do much damage. If it's a highline backhand, you go to the outside and over the arm, with the right deflecting and left striking. If it's lowline slashes, you drop the deflecting arm the necessary amount. If it's a straight thrust you sidestep and deflect with the appropriate arm. There are simple follow ups that work from all of these positions, but it's the intitial power shot to the face/head that makes everything else work."


                Comment

                • #25
                  Originally posted by quietanswer
                  the thread is still worth seeing, but I wanted to grab and post the juiciest part (imo). I hope this doesn't offend anyone or violate any forum policies. This is Protector speaking in this quote, and it's drawn from http://www.bladeforum.com:
                  -----------------------------
                  "The current technique that I teach as a primary defense, and that is taught at our state police academy, is a variation on the Kali/Silat dive entry. To understand this, picture a BG throwing a straight right punch at your chin. You bring both hands and arms up like you are about to dive into a pool, hands together, elbows out a little and head tucked, using the arms for cover. The punch would deflect off your left arm and the hands snapping out, combined with a brisk step in, would strike to the face, throat or maybe a shoulder stop, depending on the situation. The key here is to combine the step in and arm movement for a deep drive, that snaps the head back.

                  To change this into a knife defense you just change the arm position a little. If the knife is coming down or in on an FMA angle 1 (high right, coming down) the left arm drifts out enough to deflect the arm coming down and the right hand goes to the face. Your drive should snap the head back, maybe even knock the BG on his butt. If you picure 100% of your energy going forward, maybe 15% goes into the deflection and 85% to the BG's head. The strike is an open palm strike and when you make contact your fingers are attempting to gouge/scratch eyes and do other damage also. In training with attackers in FIST and Redman suits, if you do the initial strike right, the knife doesn't get to the intended target or doesn't have enough energy to do much damage. If it's a highline backhand, you go to the outside and over the arm, with the right deflecting and left striking. If it's lowline slashes, you drop the deflecting arm the necessary amount. If it's a straight thrust you sidestep and deflect with the appropriate arm. There are simple follow ups that work from all of these positions, but it's the intitial power shot to the face/head that makes everything else work."
                  The key to making the dive work is to go *through* the attack. If you go around the attack or you try to avoid the attack or deal with the attack, then you lose some of the value of the dive (though you may still find a workable technique from where you end up). This is the largest problem I've seen with people trying to do the dive ... they try to manually deflect or avoid the attack instead of trusting the structure.

                  As far as using it against a knife ... I can see using the concept against a knife ... but I can't see using the full dive. If you do it against someone who has any depth of understanding with a knife you'll get gutted and dead very quickly.

                  This part of Protector's statement: "In training with attackers in FIST and Redman suits, if you do the initial strike right, the knife doesn't get to the intended target or doesn't have enough energy to do much damage."

                  A knife requires very little energy to do some serious damage. Also, the FIST and Redman suits are somewhat restrictive to their movement. Try this against someone not wearing a suit I would guess that about 6 times out of 10, you'll end up dead (if the attacker has no real knife training). If the guy has any understanding of the knife then you'll probably end up dead about 9 out of 10 (if you're lucky).

                  The *concept* of the dive, however, can be used against a knife ... but until you have a good understanding of the dive, you wouldn't even recognize the dive concept being used in most (valid) applications I can think of against a knife.

                  Now, having said that, I think the dive (as the protector originally described) is a good technique against a punch (and it works well as a "panic" response to an attack). The concept is great. I just don't think the *technique* is very valid against a knife (though the *concept* is still applicable).

                  Regards, Mike

                  Comment

                  • #26
                    juicy post?

                    to me, another "juicy part" of that thread is seeing a long-time fma'er/LEO writing that most stripping disarms vs. knife are just not practical/safe . . .

                    however, i also have reservations re:"the dive" vs. knife.

                    Comment

                    • #27
                      Re: juicy post?

                      Originally posted by Chop Wisby
                      to me, another "juicy part" of that thread is seeing a long-time fma'er/LEO writing that most stripping disarms vs. knife are just not practical/safe . . .
                      Yup ... now we're back to the "incidental if not accidental" idea of disarms. It can also be applied to locks/throws/sweeps/nerve strikes. You train them so that when they do present themselves you're able to take advantage of them ... but if you go looking for them, you'll likely be beaten to a pulp before you find them.

                      "Deal with the weapon; fight/finish the man." :-)

                      Regards, Mike

                      Comment

                        • #28
                        yes, it's great to hear an experienced person

                        with a conflicting point of view from the norm..

                        but then again, keep in mind that in a knife defense situation you are
                        1: convinced that you are going to be cut. maybe you will get out of it without injury, but most people say "expect to get cut when facing a knife wielder, experienced or not"
                        2: convinced you can't run. see number 1. if you know you'll get cut, you're probably not (at this point) fighting over ego, but instead, for your life.
                        3: have confronted the idea that you will die in this situation (see 1 and 2..can't run, gonna get cut...death is possible)

                        so with 1-3 considerred we are now in a different fight from a friendly duel/day at class. In a fight, you never know what comes next. you only get the now - you can't see how everything will turn out. You don't know if a man with a knife is going to take your kidneys, your eyesight, or possibly completely sever your hamstring or your patella tendon..(whatever it's called).

                        that's the mindset I think the strips were born of.. men that had seen brothers and friends killed in knife fights on the battleground, and understood that a cut on the hand is a very minor concern in the heat of battle. in my internet journeys, I found a page with some disarms from the olde english..it was how to disarm a dirk wielder.. and in every disarm, they grab the blade. Now, granted, they weren't fighting with hunting knives that had razor sharp edges.. but the dirks DID have edges, and these men did grab them with ungauntletted hands.. better in the hand than in the face, heart, or leg..

                        however, this mindset isn't as easy to teach in class than a "touchless" system of disarms. The thing is, when it's time to disarm, you aren't in a don't get it on my clothes mindset. you are in a keep that blade outta me mindset..

                        of course, I'm not a guy with any live blade, self defending-knifefighting experience, so this is all conjecture...just my two bits..

                        [Edited by quietanswer on 11-22-2000 at 09:14 AM]

                        Comment

                        • #29
                          Re: yes, it's great to hear an experienced person

                          Originally posted by quietanswer
                          with a conflicting point of view from the norm..

                          but then again, keep in mind that in a knife defense situation you are
                          1: convinced that you are going to be cut. maybe you will get out of it without injury, but most people say "expect to get cut when facing a knife wielder, experienced or not"
                          2: convinced you can't run. see number 1. if you know you'll get cut, you're probably not (at this point) fighting over ego, but instead, for your life.
                          3: have confronted the idea that you will die in this situation (see 1 and 2..can't run, gonna get cut...death is possible)

                          so with 1-3 considerred we are now in a different fight from a friendly duel/day at class. In a fight, you never know what comes next. you only get the now - you can't see how everything will turn out. You don't know if a man with a knife is going to take your kidneys, your eyesight, or possibly completely sever your hamstring or your patella tendon..(whatever it's called).

                          that's the mindset I think the strips were born of.. men that had seen brothers and friends killed in knife fights on the battleground, and understood that a cut on the hand is a very minor concern in the heat of battle. in my internet journeys, I found a page with some disarms from the olde english..it was how to disarm a dirk wielder.. and in every disarm, they grab the blade. Now, granted, they weren't fighting with hunting knives that had razor sharp edges.. but the dirks DID have edges, and these men did grab them with ungauntletted hands.. better in the hand than in the face, heart, or leg..

                          however, this mindset isn't as easy to teach in class than a "touchless" system of disarms. The thing is, when it's time to disarm, you aren't in a don't get it on my clothes mindset. you are in a keep that blade outta me mindset..

                          of course, I'm not a guy with any live blade, self defending-knifefighting experience, so this is all conjecture...just my two bits..

                          [Edited by quietanswer on 11-22-2000 at 09:14 AM]
                          Some good points. I've also heard it postulated that in a street confrontation where both fighters are at least somewhat fresh. However, in a prolonged combat (i.e.: tribe against tribe), when people start getting tired, things that might not have worked against a fresh opponent have a higher percentage of working against someone who's been fighting for a while and isn't fresh and rested. This is particularly true if you *are* more rested and fresher than your opponent.

                          While this isn't something many of us will ever have to face ... it might be something to consider in this discussion.

                          Regards, Mike

                          Comment

                          • #30
                            disarm instrux

                            well, knife disarms are something to be careful with; it seems to me that if you want to learn that kind of material, then you want an instructor who is a LEO or has other, verifiable, "street experience" . . .

                            there's a lot of fantasy stuff out there that can get people hurt.

                            Chop Wisby

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