Karate ain't so bad

[sherwinc]

Well I have put in over 20 years in the martial arts and 10 years into karate so I think that gives me a right to make some judgments right or wrong.

And I judge karate the way it is generally taught and trained in most dojos to be an inferior product. Now there are exceptions to the rule, but for the most part Kata, holding arms out, over exaggerated blocks, punch/blocking from hips, pre-arranged cooperative drills do nothing for your ability to fight and in fact can be counter productive due to it can wire your neuromuscular memory incorrectly.

You mean Karate?????
TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if you mean TKD?????
TRUE ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!

But if you mean KungFu?????
FALSE........

[darrianation]

You mean Karate?????
TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if you mean TKD?????
TRUE ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!

But if you mean KungFu?????
FALSE........

I mean any MA that uses Kata/forms, holding arms out, using or practicing over exaggerated blocks, punch/blocking from hips, pre-arranged cooperative drills.

If you guys in KF train this way, then this means you too!

[sherwinc]

I mean any MA that uses Kata/forms, holding arms out, using or practicing over exaggerated blocks, punch/blocking from hips, pre-arranged cooperative drills.

If you guys in KF train this way, then this means you too!

You already know that those what you see in Karate and Tae Kwon Do is not the same as those of KungFu......

Forms of KungFu is very important and applicable to streetfighting while Forms of TaeKwonDo and Karate are not applicable to streetfighting......

the reason why MuayThai will beat Karate and TaeKwonDo
but MuayThai cant beat KungFu

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I mean any MA that uses Kata/forms, holding arms out, using or practicing over exaggerated blocks, punch/blocking from hips, pre-arranged cooperative drills.

If you guys in KF train this way, then this means you too!

Also not allowing sparring until a cetain level has been reached
If you are allowed to spar strait away, you willl know techniques are very seldomly used the same as in basics

Before I started Karate, I saw others only allowing sparring from 3rd kyu ( brown belt 1 stripe) then I came to club where my dad was a Judo instructor/teacher and strait away the first lesson was allowed to spar

It was because my dad was a member of a org of Judo and ju jitsu instructors ( licenced), which organised a coarse for savate instructor that I came aquanted with contactsports ( the instructor was Johan Vos, coach of Lucia Rijkers and Ernesto Hoost)
Because I lacked knowledge of the strikes I not only entered the coarse but also entered a MT/kickboxing and a savate class at the school of the instructor
( sorry bit of selfpromoting SPAM)

I was a licenced Savate Instructor before I became a licenced Karate Instructor so it will have influenced my Karate

I read a lot on the forums about instilling the wrong muscle memory by doing basics the old way, that is, leaving the arm out, well look at it this way, if a beginner ( thats what basics are for) has to retract his punch you will really have pulled punches ( because of the thin air) they will be retracted to early, doning the basics this way and spar right from the start will give the muscle memory for the end of the punch as well as the MM of the punch in movement
since in sparring reasonable contact to the body was allowed the MM was just fine

[maymay80]

why is it that you all said that Traditional Martial arts punch in the thin air????

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[Toudiyama[NL]]

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Because the modernists like to generalize all TMA into one group, whereas when they look at their onw art they look at a few topfighters

When "TMA" is used by modernists, they actually mean noncontact arts, specificaly the unarmed ones, thus all TMA punch into thin air

The fact of the matter is that any MA that is based on a certain "Tradition" is a TMA, now name me one that isn't based on a certain tradition
One of the "traditions" may be that you are suppose to make alterations when venturing out on your own
Or they way one competes ( like in MT)

[sherwinc]

Because the modernists like to generalize all TMA into one group, whereas when they look at their onw art they look at a few topfighters

When "TMA" is used by modernists, they actually mean noncontact arts, specificaly the unarmed ones, thus all TMA punch into thin air

The fact of the matter is that any MA that is based on a certain "Tradition" is a TMA, now name me one that isn't based on a certain tradition
One of the "traditions" may be that you are suppose to make alterations when venturing out on your own
Or they way one competes ( like in MT)

Correction.......

in TMA, only KungFu has no RingMatch with rules......

Karate Tournament has an enormous amount of rules....
Tae Kwon Do tournament has an enormous amount of rules.....

only KungFu Fights has no rules.......

the reason why Tae Kwon Do and Karate will loose both of them if their opponent is MuayThai or Boxing, Wresting, BJJ, etc.......

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Correction.......

in TMA, only KungFu has no RingMatch with rules......

Karate Tournament has an enormous amount of rules....
Tae Kwon Do tournament has an enormous amount of rules.....

only KungFu Fights has no rules.......

the reason why Tae Kwon Do and Karate will loose both of them if their opponent is MuayThai or Boxing, Wresting, BJJ, etc.......

You keep on dreaming, ANY Competition, no matter what will have a set of rules KF included, we weren't talking streetfight or gymfights

Have you been in Karate or TKD competition, how else could you know if they have an enormous amount of rules
I've been on both sides both competitor and judge what about you
It's not so much the rules but the way referees think a technique should be excecuted or what is allowed
Example, nowhere in the rulebook does it state that elbows are prohibitted yet try one and you will be reprimanded or the other side gets points, knees the same thing

[sherwinc]

You keep on dreaming, ANY Competition, no matter what will have a set of rules KF included, we weren't talking streetfight or gymfights

Have you been in Karate or TKD competition, how else could you know if they have an enormous amount of rules
I've been on both sides both competitor and judge what about you
It's not so much the rules but the way referees think a technique should be excecuted or what is allowed
Example, nowhere in the rulebook does it state that elbows are prohibitted yet try one and you will be reprimanded or the other side gets points, knees the same thing

i have a background of Yellow Belt in Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate, thier tournament has enormous amount of rules with referree...... when i spar - the ratio of hit is 50:50 maybe karate is not for me......

i have plenty of Tae Kwon Do sparring partner, and their Tournament has an Unlimited amount of rules with referee.......

while in KungFu, if you are hit with your opponent a foul attack, then it is consider that its your own fault that you did not intercept its foul attack..... since in KungFu: a blow target to the head, back, etc... except groin and eyes are permitted......

note:
in kungfu, i frequently noticed that once your hand do Tiong, or Kwe Kun Kwe, your opponent could not land his fist unto your head or your body since forearm smashing against opponents forearm is frequently emphasized as a defensive mechanism.......

much more than meets the eye......

[Toudiyama[NL]]

i have a background of Yellow Belt in Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate, thier tournament has enormous amount of rules with referree...... when i spar - the ratio of hit is 50:50 maybe karate is not for me......

i have plenty of Tae Kwon Do sparring partner, and their Tournament has an Unlimited amount of rules with referee.......

don't tell me you have a different ratio in KF competition, well actually one side doesn't have that ratio.. the winning side

TKD prohibbits even sweeps, theyy considder that kicks that are to low

while in KungFu, if you are hit with your opponent a foul attack, then it is consider that its your own fault that you did not intercept its foul attack..... since in KungFu: a blow target to the head, back, etc... except groin and eyes are permitted......

So if I kick you in the groin, I'm not penalized?
Karate allows you to attack the head and back too, heck they will be considdered a great score especially the back
I'm allowed to grab and sweep IF they are followed by a finishing move otherwise they are considdeered stalling

note:
in kungfu, i frequently noticed that once your hand do Tiong, or Kwe Kun Kwe, your opponent could not land his fist unto your head or your body since forearm smashing against opponents forearm is frequently emphasized as a defensive mechanism.......

much more than meets the eye......

When making a reverse punch, a good Karateka will have his head protected and his upper body covered by his othe arm

Main difference I've seen between KF and Karate competition is that in KF they seem to score every hit whereas Karate only score those that are excecuted properly enough to have some effect
For instance, if I het you but my arm is stretched completely, I won't get a score, simplly because in a real fight I could not drive it into the target enough to be effective

What is crap nowaday is that I see a lot of people hopping the same way as TKD people, just up and down with both legs at the same time, where it used to be that they moved the frontfoot back and fort and sideways, breaking the ritme all the time, thus creating but also concieling the attack

It's not so much what is allowed but what scores easiest, this is caused by the fact that in Karate you stop after every score, therefore it's harder to score with an infighting technique, before you are near enough the opponent will have done a backfist, reverse punch and backfist and slipped back
This first attack pauses the match is what anoyed me at times, when a powerfull technique a fraction of a second later then a weaker technique like the backfist wouldn't score, no matter if the backfist score or not ( the Ref stops because he thinks he sees a score but then determines it wasn't effective enough)

[sherwinc]

So if I kick you in the groin, I'm not penalized?
Karate allows you to attack the head and back too, heck they will be considdered a great score especially the back
I'm allowed to grab and sweep IF they are followed by a finishing move otherwise they are considdeered stalling

if you hit your sparring partner in the groin, your kungfu classmates will laugh to your sparring partner screaming in pain.....

then your kungfu instructor will warning you hitting to the groin, then the kungfu instructor approaches your spar partner to aleviate the pain and advicing to your spar partner that its his own fault, he did not intercept the oncoming kick thats the reason why you hit his groin.....

eventhou hitting to the eyes and groin is not valid, but if you hit in the groin, then its your own fault...... hitting to your partners eyes is really not valid and use your coconut shell for the outcome......

When making a reverse punch, a good Karateka will have his head protected and his upper body covered by his othe arm

Main difference I've seen between KF and Karate competition is that in KF they seem to score every hit whereas Karate only score those that are excecuted properly enough to have some effect
For instance, if I het you but my arm is stretched completely, I won't get a score, simplly because in a real fight I could not drive it into the target enough to be effective

What is crap nowaday is that I see a lot of people hopping the same way as TKD people, just up and down with both legs at the same time, where it used to be that they moved the frontfoot back and fort and sideways, breaking the ritme all the time, thus creating but also concieling the attack

It's not so much what is allowed but what scores easiest, this is caused by the fact that in Karate you stop after every score, therefore it's harder to score with an infighting technique, before you are near enough the opponent will have done a backfist, reverse punch and backfist and slipped back
This first attack pauses the match is what anoyed me at times, when a powerfull technique a fraction of a second later then a weaker technique like the backfist wouldn't score, no matter if the backfist score or not ( the Ref stops because he thinks he sees a score but then determines it wasn't effective enough)

Very True, all true......

one of the reasons why i do not consider Karate and Tae Kwon Do a good art.....

[Toudiyama[NL]]

if you hit your sparring partner in the groin, your kungfu classmates will laugh to your sparring partner screaming in pain.....

then your kungfu instructor will warning you hitting to the groin, then the kungfu instructor approaches your spar partner to aleviate the pain and advicing to your spar partner that its his own fault, he did not intercept the oncoming kick thats the reason why you hit his groin.....

eventhou hitting to the eyes and groin is not valid, but if you hit in the groin, then its your own fault...... hitting to your partners eyes is really not valid and use your coconut shell for the outcome......

yeah but that's in the gym what about competition outside the gym?


Very True, all true......

one of the reasons why i do not consider Karate and Tae Kwon Do a good art.....[/QUOTE]

You judge a Karate only on how they compete, whereas you consider KF on what is done in the gym
Sportskarate and Budokarate are 2 seperate things, one could train just for competition but then one would have a very limited arsenal
You won't see them do a knifehand, hammerfist or outwards roundhousekick from these guys nor Kumade ( bearclaw) or any ipponken ( one knuckle fist)
no sukuto fumikomi ( downwards sidekick to knee)
Karate has most of the techniques of Wu zu quan ( Ngo Cho kun) except for in competition ( and schoold focussing on it)

[sherwinc]

yeah but that's in the gym what about competition outside the gym?


Very True, all true......

one of the reasons why i do not consider Karate and Tae Kwon Do a good art......

You judge a Karate only on how they compete, whereas you consider KF on what is done in the gym
Sportskarate and Budokarate are 2 seperate things, one could train just for competition but then one would have a very limited arsenal
You won't see them do a knifehand, hammerfist or outwards roundhousekick from these guys nor Kumade ( bearclaw) or any ipponken ( one knuckle fist)
no sukuto fumikomi ( downwards sidekick to knee)
Karate has most of the techniques of Wu zu quan ( Ngo Cho kun) except for in competition ( and schoold focussing on it)

We learn KungFu not for ringfights but to counquer ourselves..... we have to learn KungFu in order to fight for the obstacles of life........ and not to hurt someone......

especially, if we join the tournament competition, it will only exposed our best moves and lousy moves....... lead us in a great jeopardy later......

my instructor always said:
show me your highest KungFu Forms then i will know your 50% advantages and disadvantages in fighting...... whether your KungFu is a Commercialized, Non-Commercialized or a Fake KungFu......

Example:
in a fight WingChun KungFu versus ChiDianBun KungFu
ChiDianBun KungFu will beat WingChun KungFu in a fight.....

but in their re-match..... WingChun KungFu will beat ChiDianBun KungFu BADLY....

in a second re-match - still WingChun will win - and so on....

why??????

cause WingChun will know our advantages/disadvantages during the first fights.........

as my instructor always said;
ChiDianBun KungFu will never beat WingChun KungFu and NgoChoKun KungFu
(assuming that NgoChoKun, ChiDianBun, WingChun - 3 of them are equal level fighters fight each other)

since ChiDianBun is a Taoist form of kungfu - it is expected that the buddha form of kungfu WingChun and NgoChokun will win

[sherwinc]

the year 1993, in our small kungfu club....

there you could see....

Chit Chiee Tong Long Kun KungFu versus AngKa KungFu....

NgoChoKun KungFu versus ChiDianBun KungFu.....

TaiChiaeKun (TaiChi) versus HapKunTo KungFu.....

ChiDianBun KungFu versus Southern TongLongKun KungFu.....

ChiDianBun KungFu versus my instructor's Hing-E (Hsing-I Chuan).....

TaiChiaeKun (TaiChi) versus my instructor's Southern Eagle Claw KungFu.....

etc.... etc.... etc.....

Note:
there we (the students) know the advantages/disadvantages of every kungfu style/systems, their deadly moves as well as their weakness......

it is very exciting to spar kungfu style versus other kungfu style

and during our hard sparring sessions..... the Tae Kwon Do Club and Karate Club found near our KungFu Club area - their students are always watch our sparring........ we usually closed our windows and doors in order for them not to see the way KungFu fights........

cause when they see the way we fights..... they will get it and claimed it them......

Karate Club and Tae Kwon Do Club near our KungFu Club - we assure that they cannot witness the way we fight..... but sometimes they see some of our KungFu Forms....... they are cheating sometimes on us secretly.....

thanks .... cause they know nothing about our kungfu art, what they know about kungfu is only thru movies that they see..... and they judge as kungfu is weak and lousy hahahahahahahahahahaha.....

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I could show you my most advanced form and still you wouldn't know much, why?, we only use the onkinawan form of which most have chinese roots but the style is made up of Okinawan karate and an atamibased ju jitsu style shinto yoshin ryu ( has links to Aikijitsu)
Because the founder didn't make his own forms, you won't see anything of it in the forms, none of the grapling and stuff like that
Karate style is of the Shurite lineage with only 9 forms 5 of which are Pinan Kata the others Naihanchi, Kushanku(kokuson), Seishan and Chinto
We do have more but the founder only deemd the 9 important
Appart from that, knowing my techniques is not the same as knowing my tactics is it
In Wado Karate the focus is on Kumite(sparring) prearranged as well as free
the prearranged aren't meant to learn how to fight but to learn certain principles that can be usefull in a fight
Wado's main principle is not to waste any energy and avoid hard block if at all possible

Me I welcome everyone that wants to watch, I'm a teacher, I like to help everyone, not just those who aere prepared to pay money and stay for a longer period.
If someone of the local TKD. KF, or Pentjak Silat would come to watch, he or she is free to do so, if they want to attend just one lesson and in this lesson I see a weakness in their way, I will tell them ( I take it you and your teacher wouldn't because it would give you and advantage)

I myself would never enter a gym that has this secrecy, it was worse enough that the black belts exams done by the National organisation are done behind closed doors( to protect those being examined)

Peronally I never lost because someone had echniques I didn't know, I only lost to people who were faster than me