my opinion on jkd,and people.

[wcskgh]

i have trained various arts for along time, not as long as others, and more than some. about 12 yrs total. my problem with jkd, is the way it's taught. first off, jkd is supposed to be a system of take whats useful, and discard the rest. now, i see alot of jkd guys doing chi sau, lop sau, etc. they dont know anything about the forms of wing chun, or the principles, etc.bruce never completed wing chun, so whatever he discarded from what he did learn, then he taught others that much, then more was discarded. what if the parts that bruce didn't learn, would have been best for you? you will never know. what if the best technique for you, was the one that bruce abandoned? now you miss out, and it goes against what bruce preached. so in a way, jkd is hypocritical. absorb whats useful, but again, we are all different shapes and sizes,and attributes. just like bruce not liking high kicks, until meeting norris. i see all jkd schools teaching a mix match of techniques from different arts, this is dumb. you need to learn the arts from start to finish, then eliminate what is useless to you. but people want an easy way out. wing chun is not about trapping, not even close, so you abandon wing chun trapping, because you dont know what it really is. also, i love bruce, but truth is, there were guys crosstraining way before him, kajukendo was before jkd, it was karate, jiu jitsu,and kempo mixed, also my teacher, the late herman suwanda, his dad combined 18 styles of silat together, in the 50's, and in china, bagua,tai qi,and hsing yi were taught together,as was a ton of other arts. if i study eagle claw, hsing yi, silat, and capoeira, can i not have jkd? all these jkd people do is follow a teacher,and study the same arts as bruce, then dan, but that is not jkd. use the 5 ways of attack, with any arts mixed,and economy of motion,etc, and you have jkd. by following a curriculum,of specific moves and styles, you missed the boat. again, im a huge bruce fan. but he always said to find your own truth, not follow his

[PentjackSilat]

You are right, JKD is about finding your own path. But where should I begin? What's the perfect martial art to study to start to find my own path? I have to begin somewhere. Where? Should I start with Tae Kwon Do? Karate? Muay Thai? Should I start where Bruce Lee left off and grow from there?
Everyone needs a base. Right? Is it true that everyone first needs to create a foundation, in order to break the foundation? How can you express the music from your soul if you have never played a note?
First you are taught a classical guitar song, but you express yourself with jazz. Was the classical lesson any less important? Or was it a step in your staircase?
How can you know the perfect martial art for you, if you've never taken a martial art before? Should you just pick one, and through the experience you get, narrow down your search?
This is the lesson, from what you are saying, all the JKD people you've ever seen never got. JKD is the starting point. It is meant to give you a foundation in everything, so that you may find your own path.
This is why your taught to Kick, Punch, Trap, Grapple. This is why your taught so many different methods of doing those four. Not, in my opinion, because JKD is a little of all, and therefore the best.
If you show a proficiency in Wing-Chun...take Wing-Chun. The teachers are not there to hold your hand every step of the way and tell you to take Wing-Chun. JKD is about self discovery. How is me telling you to go see Sifu Francis Fong and study Wing-Chun because your good at it, allowing you to find your own path?
If you like Wing-Chun, you will take the initiative. If you don't, then you are either the type of student who has jumped on the bandwagon, or just takes JKD because you want to take martial arts, and couldn't care less if it was JKD or Karate.
JKD teachers shouldn't be teachers. They should be guides who help students find their own path. If you come to me and ask for more Wing-Chun I will guide you. I will not take you by the hand every step of the way. That would be creating a robot.
Also, JKD is not cross-training for the sake of cross-training. JKD is cross-training because you have researched that art and think it has something to offer you.
I hope I don't sound sarcastic. I write all this with the hope of edification. Too many people hop on the JKD bandwagon and never know what JKD is. JKD is not Bruce Lee, nor Inosanto. JKD can be Tae Kwon Do. JKD can be street fighting. JKD is a philosophy you use to train intelligently. But just like there are people out there who get a weekend certification course in Yoga and call themselves masters, so too are there people who have given themselves this title in JKD without true credentials.
Misinformation is rampant!

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I've always said that the "absorb/reject" philo should be used within JKD itself as well. Otherwise it is hypocritical. I have been actually yelled at by "original" JKD people because my training now is mostly ground and pound, boxing, and BJJ. For me that is what really works because I have researched it, and spent lots of time sparring and working with different martial artists in those fields. I don't like straightblasting, I don't like a lot of things JKD people do. And it didn't come from one day of trying things out, but constant trial and error over years.
One of the things I hate the most is the fact that I don't seem to claim a "style" of martial art. I use the terms JKD and MMA, but that still doesn't help because people have these images of what those words mean.
People think of trapping and straightblasting when they hear JKD. I do none of those because I find success with other things like wrestling and ground and pound. People think of cage fighting when they hear MMA, but I don't do that either. So I really can't call myself anything. I am even starting to get deeper into Chinese buddhism, and even shaolin philosophy...but
I don't find the actual martial art all that impressive to me in actual combat... (with the exception of say San Shou..another thing I'm really getting interested in.)
The problem with being true to yourself is that you have to be honest, think, and sometimes you can't please everybody.

Ryu

[J.K.]

Not every person is studying martial arts to become a teacher/guru/sifu. I would say the majority of people study the art simply for self defense. As we are all aware - to perfect something so complex could take a life time. In my oppionion - bruce tried to put together a system that would be practical and rather easy to learn. The style can be adapted to meet the physical and mental attributes of its practitioners. Some styles are more suitable for particalar people than others. Bruce realized this and extracted the techniques that he felt where useful. Most people have jobs and cant devote their entire lives to perfecting there self defense - however they do have the time to learn how to be safe and defend themselves in a hostile situation. A practioner of JKD Junfan will see a huge difference in his/her ability to defend there selves in about 6 months. If you study 6 months of wing chun you haven't even figured out the footwork. My point is this system was designed to accelerate learning - and I think it does a dam good job. Its extremely versatile - includeing all ranges of combat. It has weapons to make the art even more practical for self defense. One can study weapons for a life time and still have a lot to learn, on the other hand any, one who picks up a weapon such as a knife instantly makes themself even more deadly and equipted for defense.

Yes, many people study the same path/curriculum bruce did. This does not mean they are copying him, but rather exploring what he explored and extracting what is useful. The arts he trained in happen to be very practical, so I think that is why people continue to follow the same path.

Im not sure what your problem is with JKD people. I've trained with hundreds of JKD people and believe me, they can fight. You can't deny the fact that bruce was a pioneer in the martial arts. Yes, there where people crosstraining prior to BL - but he took it a step further. His recognition isn't limited to his MA background - he broke down racial barriers, movie stardom, education, physical achievement, and more. He basicaly came from nothing an achieved more than the average person achieves in a life time in only 30 years. To me he is an excellant role model - which has defienetly influenced my training. By studing a similiar curriculum as bruce - I have learned how to defend myself - So I have achieved my own path and goals.

[sikal]

Originally posted by J.K.
Yes, there where people crosstraining prior to BL - but he took it a step further. His recognition isn't limited to his MA background - he broke down racial barriers, movie stardom, education, physical achievement, and more. He basicaly came from nothing an achieved more than the average person achieves in a life time in only 30 years.

Excellent point J. K.

But even just within the confines of cross-training. The samurai of feudal Japan cross-trained ... and it probably wasn't a new idea then.

What Bruce did for cross-training was to shine a big spot light on it and point it out to the (primarily American) MA community at large. Yes, there were people already doing it. But the MA community at the time, by and large, considered cross-training taboo.

wcskgh: You seem to be as much a "Herman-o-phile" as a lot of people are "Bruce-o-philes." I have nothing *but* respect for Pak Herman, the Suwanda family, and Mande Muda. Yes, it's a system founded on cross-training ... but even Pak Herman used to tell stories about lying to his instructors about his background so that they would let him train with them. Cross-training was taboo there too. This is one of the reasons that Mande Muda is sometimes called the "JKD of Silat." The Suwanda family did the same thing for cross-training in Indonesia that Bruce Lee did in America.

Mike

[Bau]

If you ask me...

Cross training = JKD

you know... training whatever you feel it is you need to grow as a complete fighter..even if its just ONE single technique from a certain martial art...

I get very annoyed with these " original" JKD guys...saying shit like...oh if you dont train Wing CHun...its not JKD...

gimme a break...

[wcskgh]

listen carefully

i am not on suwandas jock, i loved pa herman, yes, he was a great ro;e model, i just use him as a reference, because i saw him grapple, and i knew alot about his crosstraining. i also love bruce lee, he is what started me in martial arts, but my point is, how can you absorb what is useful, if you use what bruce taught, that is already stripped down, and then you strip it down more,and so on. you could be missing the best part of the art for you, because bruce threw it away.the public, in general, sees jkd as wing chun, thai, grappling and kali. my point is that jkd is a philosophy, it can be tae kwon do, san shou, capoiera,etc. but to call yourself a jkd guy,or you teach jkd, you ,must have a lineage back to bruce, which means you have to learn his arts, which makes jkd a style, not a philosophy.

[J.K.]

JKD PHILOSOPHY - JUN FAN JKD - STYLE

You are missing the point - people study the jkd philophy which encourages crosstraining and self development. Jun Fan is the system bruced developed which is composed of many arts. Today, people will go to individual schools to learn specific arts such as: tkd, kali, arins, shoot, bjj. You could also go to a school that has already integrated a combination of arts. Jun Fan as I no it - consisist of a multitude of different arts which incorporate all ranges of combat. Most people in the JKD system study with more than one teacher and seek out specialist/guru of specific systems. This further emphisises the point of self discovery - for some kali might be the answer the have been looking for, for others it maybe a waist of time.

You are getting confused between the concepts that bruce laid out in the Tao of JKD and martial art system - Jun Fan JKD. Jun Fan is a system that consist of multiple arts. The style incorporates all ranges of motion - which many arts do not. I've have studied a number of different arts and most of them focus on specific ranges and therefore some people may consider them to be incomplete. Jun Fan does have specific arts that it extracted techniques from. Its what bruce felt would work, Just like how your former teacher Herman Suande probably passed to you what he felt would be effective for you. This is not a new concept - all masters try to develop there own brian child of a system.

No matter what style you study the Tao of JKD can assist you in finding your weeknesses, correct your weeknesses and achieving your goals. Its a philosophy. Jun Fan JKD can teach you self defense.

[sikal]

Re: listen carefully

Originally posted by wcskgh
i am not on suwandas jock, i loved pa herman, yes, he was a great ro;e model, i just use him as a reference, because i saw him grapple, and i knew alot about his crosstraining.

I was just letting you know how you sounded (not just here but in the Silat thread also).

i also love bruce lee, he is what started me in martial arts, but my point is, how can you absorb what is useful, if you use what bruce taught, that is already stripped down, and then you strip it down more,and so on. you could be missing the best part of the art for you, because bruce threw it away.the public, in general, sees jkd as wing chun, thai, grappling and kali. my point is that jkd is a philosophy, it can be tae kwon do, san shou, capoiera,etc. but to call yourself a jkd guy,or you teach jkd, you ,must have a lineage back to bruce, which means you have to learn his arts, which makes jkd a style, not a philosophy.

JKD is a philsophy not a style. Jun Fan Gung Fu is a style.

I assume by "public in general" you mean the MA community at large? You may be right. I don't know.

I assume that we're all in agreement that cross-training is valid and valuable ... but that a foundation is necessary, right?

In my opinion (based on what I've heard from Dan Inosanto and Richard Bustillo) Jun Fan is the foundation which makes someone a "JKD person."

I cross-train. I've had a fair amount of exposure to Jun Fan and have a decent amount of knowledge about the system. But I don't consider myself a "JKD Man" because the Jun Fan didn't play a pivotal role in my development. Jun Fan is not my core.

The JKD philosophy is about self-expression ... regardless of martial medium ... but without Jun Fan as the core, it's not really "JKD."

For some people, what Bruce taught is all they need. It works for them.

To say someone can't find self-expression in a single art is ludicrous. That's like saying that only Jazz musicians ever find self-expression and that Classical musicians are hopelessly mired in tradition. But then have a listen to Itzak Perlman and Yo Yo Ma playing the same arrangement ... they each express it differently.

It is possible to find self-expression within the system of Jun Fan ... just as it's possible to find self-expression within any other system of martial arts. Cross-training isn't necessary ... but I think it helps most people in finding their self-expression.

Jun Fan is no different from any other system. It's just that it's highest philosophical expression has a name: JKD.

Most other arts have something similar ... but may or may not have a name for it.

In Mande Muda, for instance, Pak Herman used the term "Pecahan" to describe the same philosophy ... in my head Pecahan and JKD are the same. They're both about self-expression.

While I'd guess you, wcskgh, know what I'm referring to with the term Pecahan, I'll briefly explain here for other readers:

"Pecahan" literally means (according to my Indo dictionary): "a broken fragment, faction of a larger whole." The word also commonly refers to a form of divination in which a vase (or something similar) is dropped and the future is predicted from the scattered fragments. In martial arts, Pak Herman used to refer to it this way: (paraphrasing) "The incoming punch is the glass which breaks. From it, I read him and respond appropriately."

Another way Pak Herman used to express this concept was: (also a paraphrase): "His punch is the question. I give him an appropriate answer."

I think these are both related to the same philosophy which Bruce called "JKD."

Mike

[doubleouch]

The idea of learning a style in its entirety to be able to absorb and reject adequately is a faulty one. If you are testing your techniques with sparring an active resisting opponent it becomes clear very easily what is usefull and what is not. Learning an art in its entirety may give you more perspective, but I don't see that it is necessary. If I want to know if pak sao works I will try it in sparring. That will tell me. You might say that "unless you know the art fully you will not be able to use pak sao correctly", I say that is bull. If that is the case then I think the art is useless and I'll reject the whole thing! If you can't use the parts of an art unless you know the whole then the art is too complicated anyway.

[PentjackSilat]

Very good point. In the book "Absorb What Is Useful," Inosanto writes that learning an entire art is not necessary. But that if you know the distance and area the art is most effective in, then you have learned it's essence. And it is only necessary to learn an arts essence.

[J.K.]

doubleooch and pentjacksilat - both made excellent points. If I studied karate - why should I learn all the forms when all i really want to be able to do is fight. Im better off learning the basics of the art and then sparring with people. At least then i will be able to identify my strengths and weeknesses. Kata will just show me - how bad my memory is.

[wcskgh]

one last time

i never said that you need to learn a whole style, to see if one technique works in a fight. yes, try pak sao, and see if it works. if all you want to do is fight, then study thai, and bjj, and i guarantee you will be much better in fighting, than if you did jkd. those arts are the simplest and most effective in a short time. now, all i was trying to point out is that without learning a whole art,. you will not see what is best for you,and be able to throw out the rest. i know its hard to train complete arts. also, i know my hsing yi instructor,and bagua, will kick my but with his hsing yi, no matter what i try. so single arts are effective, and cover all the ranges, hsing yi for example covers long, close,and trapping range, but not grappling. i have been thru some of the jun fan, and its cool, its just alot of pad work, with different arts,and if any art trained on pads alot, it would be more effective, like boxing is. its not what art you train, but how you train. bruce did not approve to much of the filipino stuff, from what i was told, he said it was to much movement,and not practical. i have an instructor rank in kali, and i love it, but i found it extremely hard to destruct something, when a good boxer was coming at me, i always resorted to wing chun, and no trapping, just feeling,and shifting. i am no great martial artist, i put in about 11 yrs with kali and wing chun, about 8 with silat,and about 3 with bjj. i know these arts pretty well, and i understand that even with that much time, i know very little of the essence of the arts, when trying to attack gary lam, i was shown what wing chun does, when trying to grapple gokor, i saw what his art does, when trying to use anything against li tai liang, i saw how nasty hsing yi was,etc. by picking pieces,and thinking you can fight, you have never fooled around with a master of his art. and for the most part, wanting a quick way of learning how to fight, will serve you well, against lousy fighters.even as much as i love silat, herman suwanda was awesome, but i know what he taught in the us, was way watered down,and i have a hard time applying alot of it. anyway, thanks for responses, i look forward to learning and sharing

[J.K.]

"if all you want to do is fight, then study thai, and bjj, and i guarantee you will be much better in fighting, than if you did jkd"

FIRST OF ALL - you are ignorant - Junfan jkd has incorporated BJJ and thai. Yes junfanjkd does do a lot of bag work but you will also do a lot of sparring, sensitivity drills, cardio...

Yes, the more you train the easier it will be to defeat a less skilled opponent. The more you train the better you will be. So a person that devotes his entire life to training - should be remarkable - no one is denying that.

There are very few martial arts that cover all ranges of combat that is why blending different arts works so well. I heard a story of 2 experts in wing chun(who shall remain nameless) - who ended up getting into a fight with each other. The bothed closed and before they new it the where both on the ground. Neither one new what to do - and all there years of devotion to WC was waisted - if only they kept an open mind and branched out. Had one of them new grappling - there might have actually been a winner. So no matter how much you prepare - its the things you are not prepared for that bite you in the a**.

[PentjackSilat]

a little philosophy:
To each his own.
a little more philosophy:
It's not the art, it's the man.