Video certification

[Ray White]

Wow, I can't believe how many times this debate and others like it pop up!

It seems to me that the obvious goal of B Lee was to develope a method for training a complete fighter. He layed the ground work for us to examine and follow to what ever degree we decide. Some choose to train exactly the way Bruce trained in the 60's, sticking to the way they trained and were taught by Bruce.

Other students of his continued to add to their repetoire.(And although they train Kali or other arts they do Not call that part of their training JKD out of respect) But their goal is the same-to become a complete fighter and a better human being.

Today we have descendants of students who trained under Lee who are training their own versions of the complete fighting method. Some have little historical link to Bruce Lee, but yet may be closer to the goal of developing true fighting potential.

I have seen examples of excellence in all camps of JKD that anyone would be lucky to train. And unfortunately I have seen examples of poor training methods, poor marketing ploys, and weak instructorships too.

Nobody has invented a bull sh!t detector that can prevent you from waisting your time. Oh, wait, I guess they have, it's called trial and error. If we get off the net, and get in the gym and train, we may finally see the results, or lack their of, that we have been looking for! We will have to find the truth for ourselves! I have heard B Lee quoting that very sentiment many times. Any good instructor will tell you the same.

Ray

[terry]

I think I'm going to move this to the JKD section of the forum.

Terry

[Bruce_Fan]

To David

David,

Please realize that I am not ganging up on you. I have read 3 pages of this thread and it seems to have been a waste of time.

You don't seem to be fond of Dan Inosanto and his lineage.
Let me ask you this:
HOW DO YOU THINK JKD SHOULD BE TAUGHT?

I am not attacking you. I am asking you a simple question.
Thanks
Bruce_Fan

[lionleo]

It is stupid and a far cry from what MA should be..shame on all who do it..
Leo

[Davidc316]

Hello Bruce Fan-

I know you'll find this hard to believe, but I've actually been trying my hardest not to fall onto the side of any particular JKD camp (and I have a feeling you're laughing when you read that!).

Anyway, to put the record straight, I agree very much with what the person Ray has said a few posts down.

If I appeared to be having a go at Paul Vanuk earlier on in this post, then it was completely unintentional. I'm slightly embarassed to admit this, but I never even knew who Paul Vanuk *was* until a few days ago! So what right would I (of all people!) have to criticise someone who I know virtually nothing about? I agree- no right!

As for Dan Inosanto...

Likewise, I have never met Dan Inosanto and I'm certainly not an expert on the man.

Here is a list of pretty much every single thing that I know about Dan Inosanto (and you'll notice that it's not a very long list!)...
----------------------------------------------------
1. Dan Inosanto was a former student and friend of Bruce Lee.

2. Dan Inosanto took many of the classes at Bruce Lee's Chinatown school.

3. This was because Bruce Lee was only at approximately 10% of the classes at the Chinatown school (he was very busy with his acting at that time of his life).

4. After Bruce Lee ordered that the Chinatown school be closed down, Inosanto asked Bruce if he could continue to teach JKD in a so-called "back yard" JKD class.

5. Bruce say yes BUT ONLY IF THE NUMBERS WERE KEPT TO A BARE MINIMUM.

6. Despite this Dan Inosanto has taught "Jeet Kune Do" to literally THOUSANDS of people and is directly or indirectly responsible for the distribution of more JKD instructor certificates than any person living or dead.

7. All (or at least the vast majority) of Dan Inosanto approved JKD classes teach Filipino martial arts styles such as Kali, Eskrima etc.

8. There is no reliable documented evidence which confirms that Bruce Lee (the founder of JKD) spent any great deal of time focussing on these particular martial arts styles.

9. As a teenager I attended a Jeet Kune Do school which was directly certified by Dan Inosanto. Looking back, I feel as though I was misled into studying Kali under the false pretense that it was "Bruce Lee's martial art". (that's not intended as any disrespect to Kali or the Filipino martial arts in general- I've heard many good things about them!)

10. In this same JKD school that I attended, I was also "taught" other things which I now know are inconsistant which what Bruce Lee taught or what Bruce Lee advocated. For example, I was told to lead with my weak side (my left side). Not only did Bruce Lee specifically tell all of his students to lead with their strong side, but there is a mountain of literature were Bruce has clearly spelt out his convictions that leading with your strongest side is a better idea.

11. Dan Inosanto was once a member of the Jeet Kune Do Nucleus, (a democratic organisation which featured people like Linda Lee, Shannon Lee, Howard Williams, Tacky Kimura and others).

12. The members of the JKD Nucleus expressed concerns than Dan Inosanto was misleading JKD students by teaching martial arts styles such as Kali and Savat on such a grand scale and was misleading many students into thinking that these particular styles have a strong association with Bruce Lee and more specifically with Jeet Kune Do.

13. Dan Inosanto refused to stop (or even modify!) his teaching methods and LEFT the Jeet Kune Do Nucleus.

14. Dan Inosanto has said in interview that Jeet Kune Do is NOT Bruce Lee's martial art. (this may not be an exact word for word quote. If anyone is REALLY interested then give me three days and I'll give you the precise quote with the source).

15. Dan Inosanto has continually stated in interviews that if a JKD person's linage doesn't trace directly back to himself, then the person is a faker on the grounds that Bruce only gave 3 people; Dan, James Lee (deceased) and Tacky Kimura (who keeps a relatively low profile) the authority to teach Jeet Kune Do.

16. But this is misleading. Why? Because there were one or two other people who Bruce Lee gave the authority to teach (eg, Jesse Glover of the Seattle school). Sure, the name Jeet Kune Do may not have been used. But, let's remember, at the time of the Seattle and Oakland schools the name "Jeet Kune Do" had barely seen the light of day!

17. Bruce Lee wrote (it's on the very last page of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do) that Jeet Kune Do is "just a name" and then added "please don't fuss over it."
----------------------------------------------------------
And there you have it!

That is just about every single Dan Inosanto related item of information that I know.

Some of these "facts" may be wrong, but about 80% of the statements above come straight from Dan Inosanto interviews that I have read (usually from Black Belt magazine).

Now, I don't want to go disrespecting a person who I don't know. But now I'd like to ask YOU a question, if that's ok...

If that was all the information that you knew about Dan Inosanto, what would you think about him?

-David

PS- Maybe I can talk about how I think JKD should be taught another day. This thread is already far too long!

[Ray White]

Dave316,

Wow, I think I should give you a little history on JKD as I have heard it from Mr. Inosanto at some of the 6-8 seminars I have attended since 1998.

Your points have some historical basis but defer from what I know as historical fact.


Dan was a student of Lee's, he was his demo partner for many of the demonstrations held when Lee was looking to build JF/JKD name. And more than that, those who were around back than know Dan and Bruce were friends and family.Lee also trained with Dan when they were researching arts and came up with the tons of pages regarding research material that would find it's way into the Tao and other books. Other than Linda, Dan was the only other person I know of who had access to these materials, and Dan is the only one who worked along side Bruce on those materials.

There were only three people to EVER get insturctorships under Lee. (J.Lee T. Kimura) Dan Inosanto is the only person to have 3 instructorships from Lee and the only living person with each incarnation of Jun Fan and/or JKD. (As far as I know Jesse Glover was a Student, not an Instructor with Lee). Not that he doesn't have experience or knowledge of Jun Fan or JKD, Lee didn't make him an instructor...

After Lee decided to go into Movies again, and put the commercial school thing on the back burner, he did tell Dan he should continue teaching the groups they had (which Dan's was in his back yard)

Dan's school is the INOSANTO ACADEMY, not the JKD ACADEMY or Lee School of MA. He has taught thousand of students JKD, along side Kali, Muay Thai, Savate, and BJJ. Not as part of a greater whole style, but as classes of a complete education. Dan has very few Full Instructors of Jun Fan or JKD. He doesn't really have that many Full instructors of Kali either. Most of his Full Instructors don't use the name JKD, they are usually Martial Arts Academies, or Kali this or that.

Dan teaches Jun Fan as a historically accurate curriculum, in an effort to preseve and charish his memory of a friend and colligue. There are classes that will focus solely on that art. No one is forced to train other arts, or has them misrepresented. Pieces of the art are taught along with parts of other core systems that are presented to beginers, so they can see the differences and similarities of arts, in order to persue those that fit them best.

The groups and individuals I have seen have always provide the student with a wide variety of choices, but Jun Fan (Lee arts) are not Kali or anything else. You may have trained differently, but I can only tell you how Mr. Inosanto has presented material to me.

He reverently speaks about how Lee changed his life, sharing an understanding and exploration of martial arts.

Nobody knows where Bruce would have taken his art, Dan preserves and teaches what he knows was Bruce's Art, and also teaches, trains and educates using developing arts and methods. (That was what they have always done)

I can only speculate on the Nucleus issues, their goal to preserve Lee's teaching are admirable. But it appears to me that several people who may or may not have legit instructorships suddenly became recognized authorites, even though Lee himself never made them instructors. ( I believe that is D. I.'s point.) Although, many have decades of experience, and I think anyone can get a good experiece from them.

But the variety and quality of instruction, and the results of training can vary. I think the art of Jun Fan and JKD, along with the memory of Lee, now belong to the world because of the efforts of Dan Inosanto, the Lee Family, and all its instructors and students.

Which really is the point, isn't it? We have a growing changing crop of practicioners out there that future students will be able to harvest! As long as new seeds keep being planted, new off shoots will grow, some will bear fruit, others will wither on the vine.

In any event, the politics will have little effect on the results you get, If you train often, hard and realistically that is. It is after all up to us to become what we will. Nobody can do that for us!

Ray White

[Ray White]

By the way, I thought the post was on the benifits or lack there of, in using Video course and certification.

Dave,

You fixated on PV JKD, than D. Inosanto. Are you Trolling? JDK is out there in many forms. Go out and get some! Debating this or that will only make you a better debater! Training will make you a better fighter...

Oh, and I think video information is priceless when combined with supervised training! You can acquire information you may not have access to. Although, you may not utilize it correctly, depending on circumstances.

As for when you should be considered a instructor, that is the million dollar question. Do I want to be part of a organization that will make me an instructor after less than 100 hrs of training? Less than 1000 hours? How long do you train before they let you can pilot an airplane? Now how long does it take to be a flight instructor? NOW, how much more do you need to be a fighter pilot? And HOW MUCH MORE for a fighter pilot trainer?!?

It's all about the competancy, ain't it! You may find someone or somewhere that will continually provide you with room for growth. Or I think you may find a trainer will take you so far, than it may be up to you to go farther.

Some people want to be coaches, some want to be players. There will always be good and bad of both.

The differences are in the compromises and short cuts we make. Of course you don't have to compare yourself to others, just yourself. So think about it... the choices are out there, only time will tell you which were right.

Ray

[Davidc316]

Ray, I like you. So I'm going to take a moment or two to address every single point you've made in your last post:

Originally posted by Ray White
Dan was a student of Lee's, he was his demo partner for many of the demonstrations held when Lee was looking to build JF/JKD name. And more than that, those who were around back than know Dan and Bruce were friends and family.Lee also trained with Dan when they were researching arts and came up with the tons of pages regarding research material that would find it's way into the Tao and other books. Other than Linda, Dan was the only other person I know of who had access to these materials, and Dan is the only one who worked along side Bruce on those materials.

Nobody disputes that Dan was a good friend of Bruce Lee's and to say he was "a demo partner" probably doesn't even do Dan justice- he was a full blown INSTRUCTOR at the Chinatown school!

Ray, I have just spent around 2 months putting together a webpage called "Bruce Lee people". On that page I have listed a whole bunch of people who (for some reason or another) played a major part in Bruce Lee's life. The entire page is not my words or opinion, but is the result of ages of research and sleepless nights.

Anyway, the thing that stuck me about all these people when I was putting together this page, is that when I read about them I was totally struck at the amount of people who could rightfully stake a claim as being "a REALLY good friend of Bruce Lee's".

Off the top of my head: Bruce was best man at Ted Wong's wedding, Tacky Kimura to this very day personally looks after Bruce Lee's grave every single week, James Lee helped Bruce to open a school, write a book AND even moved in with Bruce and his family after his wife, Catherine, died. Then we have Wong Sheun Leung- the unsung hero of modern kung-fu: the one man who Bruce Lee respected probably more than any other martial artist. This is the man who received a letter from Bruce in which Bruce wrote "in reality, I learned kung fu from you". This guy used train, visit or write to Bruce regularly throughout his entire life. And then we have Jesse Glover, who in the words of original student Skip Ellsworth was "Bruce Lee's best student" and a person who had "a profound effect on Bruce's life". (see link http://www.loghomebuilders.org/bruceleememorial.html) for details.

And that's not even a complete list!!!!!

I could go on and on and on and I'm sure there are people who I've not even mentioned who could all stake a claim as being "a really special friend of Bruce Lee's"- perhaps even a best friend!

But the truth of the matter is... there are so many people in this particular category that we must surely consider it an irrelevant variable if we want to talk about who is the ultimate authority in the JKD community.

Apart from anything else... to say "I'm a better friend than you are" is an uttely childish line or argument that we should have left behind when we were back at primary school!

Moving on...

Originally posted by Ray White
There were only three people to EVER get insturctorships under Lee. (J.Lee T. Kimura) Dan Inosanto is the only person to have 3 instructorships from Lee and the only living person with each incarnation of Jun Fan and/or JKD. (As far as I know Jesse Glover was a Student, not an Instructor with Lee). Not that he doesn't have experience or knowledge of Jun Fan or JKD, Lee didn't make him an instructor...

That is simply NOT TRUE!

In the case of Jesse Glover for example, I know for a fact that he WAS given the authority to teach by Bruce Lee. How do I know this? Because I personally interviewed Jesse Glover two days ago via email and this subject came up in one of the questions.

If you want to say this is not true then your argument has been reduced to you blatently accusing Jessie Glover of being a liar. Not only that, but you are accusing all the other original students who trained and stand by Jesse Glover of being liers. If that's the road you want to go down, then I guess there's not much more that I can offer this conversation.

Oh, and incase you're wondering. I have never met Jesse. I have never been to one of his seminars. I am not in a club that is associated with Jesse. I live at the other side of the world from Jesse and I probably wouldn't even know the guy if he walked past me in the street!!!

-------------


Ray, I wanted to talk some more, but unfortunately I'm at my mum's and she wants a shot of the computer. So, as Jimi Hendrix once said "we're being put off the air".

I'll come back on later and see if you've responded,

Take it easy,

David

[Ray White]

Dave316,

No offense, but if you want to know about the JKD history and Dan Inosanto, just read both Lee's and Insoanto's Biographies. Both are available at amazon.com or your library. And if you are lucky enough, attend the seminars or anual events of any of the parties involved and an informed picture will start to form.

I'm glad you were interested enough to spend 2 months putting a web page together. I've been collecting JKD and Bruce Lee information since I was about 16 or some 17 years ago. The only thing I can tell you is that no one is right or wrong about JKD. But some may be more in tune with your goals and asperations than others.

Good Luck!

Ray

[terry]

The politics in JKD gives me a headache.

It is at times like this when I much prefer the company of the Thais. They don't talk trash but work hard, fight hard and are quite gracious about their opponents after the fight. You hear statements like, "He was an excellent fighter. It was an honor to share the ring with him." And they mean it.

If you have the energy to talk that much trash then you aren't working hard enough. You should put your hands up and keep kicking!

Terry

[Ray White]

True!!!

[Davidc316]

I agree 100%.

When I started up my little Bruce Lee fan site, I was aware of some of the political wranglings that go on in the world of JKD and I prided myself on not appearing to take the side of any particular camp.

I have already built up good friendships with some very respected and sincere concepts-based instructors (one of them even did a little interview for me and I in return linked to his club website).

But now I feel as if I've kind of been corned into siding with one particular camp- and I've probably only got myself to blame.

This is all starting to go slightly sour for me and I'm all in favour of dropping this topic and talking about something more positive for a change. If anyone wants to count that as a victory... so be it. I've had enough.

For the moderator- if you want to delete this thread and/or the "JKD...mixed martial arts" thread (or whatever it was called, then you've certainly got the thumbs up from me!

-David

[terry]

David,

I have friends on both sides of this dispute. Personally, I have found it to be damaging to the public perception of the art and a de-motivating subject to get into. I've known Dan Inosanto and Taky Kumura for about 25 years and I flat out don't agree with some of the facts you sited. At the same time I don't really want to get into a public discussion of the details because it may just degenerate into ugly recriminations that ultimately brings disgrace on the art.

I would, however, like to leave you with the following anecdote: A few years ago I attended a dinner with Dan Inosanto, Taky Kumura, Andy Kumura and one or two other close students. It was a strained, tense meeting (I didn't say a word) in which it was clear from the start that both men saw things in a very different light. But they both believed in what they were doing and convinced the other of their sincerity. They managed to see past their differences and come together as friends.

I wish that more of their students were able to do the same.

Respectfully,

Terry

[Davidc316]

A powerful and interesting post!

But, I must admit, this is all rather confusing for me.

I don't know enough about Andy Kimura to comment on him, but I always assumed that Taky Kimura and Dan Inosanto were like two peas in a pod! I've never met them, but from what I've read I got the impression that they agreed on pretty much everything.

[akja]

Originally posted by Davidc316
A powerful and interesting post!

But, I must admit, this is all rather confusing for me.

I don't know enough about Andy Kimura to comment on him, but I always assumed that Taky Kimura and Dan Inosanto were like two peas in a pod! I've never met them, but from what I've read I got the impression that they agreed on pretty much everything.

I have to agree with Terry. I saw the same thing about what you say. Your facts are misguided half truths and when it comes down to do with anything to do with Jeet Kune Do you are off base. You don't seem to know anything about who is who, its nearly impossible to be a part of something and have no knowledge of anybody.

You run a Bruce Lee fan site, thats OK, but you try to present yourself as an authority, which you clearly are not.

Sorry buddy, you can't be what you aren't. You have to be just you. Thats a part of JKD too.