TKD vs American Kickboxing

[eXcessiveForce]

that was why i said all styles have problems. I believe that you need exposure to as much as possible so that you can determine the effectiveness of the art you are studying as well as devise defenses for attacks that are outside of your system.

Also different people have different abilities and therefore may find different things useful or effective.

I think many people fool themselves with training believing that they are some how a great martial artist because they can win a tournament. In the last few years we have seen great tournament fighters killed in real life altercations. The often forget about the possibilities that are inherent in real life.

If you have not trained for real life situations, you may be a great athlete but you are relying on luck to make you effective.

[tkd_person89]

EXCESSIVE: You mentioned that we must not take sport martial arts for more than what they are. What are they? Can you explain your comments more thorougly? Are you saying sport martial arts are ineffective?

[gabbah]

that was why i said all styles have problems. I believe that you need exposure to as much as possible so that you can determine the effectiveness of the art you are studying as well as devise defenses for attacks that are outside of your system.

Also different people have different abilities and therefore may find different things useful or effective.

I think many people fool themselves with training believing that they are some how a great martial artist because they can win a tournament. In the last few years we have seen great tournament fighters killed in real life altercations. The often forget about the possibilities that are inherent in real life.

If you have not trained for real life situations, you may be a great athlete but you are relying on luck to make you effective.

I fully agree. But all people don't train for self defense. Like you say, it's important to know that your sport/art may have very little to do with real self defense.
Sure, I see that too. Often it's the younger practitioners that believe that their art make them great fighters in the street, but in most cases they're fooling themselves. So yeah, many people need a reality check. I don't claim to know the "truth", but I have made some effort into getting an overview so to speak.
As I said, I train in American Kickboxing (at least I think that's the proper name), and most things there can't be used in a street fight. Pretty much only the boxing and some defense. Even though I train muay thai kicks, I wouldn't dare to use them I'm sure. Not even lowkick, in fear of loosing balance. In fact, I'm sure my limited bjj would help me a hell of a lot more than my kickboxing, even though I have trained kickboxing for 2 years.

Anyway, it's important to separate training for sport and training for self defense. Personally I train for sport. If I wanted self defense, there's no way I would be training (american?) kickboxing.

[eXcessiveForce]

ineffective for what?

It won't let you win american idol that's for sure

[Piston]

Really? You'd never kick in a real situation? I have done twice being very effective, once to the ribs and the 2nd time to the head, it ended the confrontation very quickly.

[Maxx]

There are a couple of legitimate points I would like to make in regards to the original question. I personally do not feel that one art is better than the other, but I do feel that certain training methods and structures are more sound. In the ring and in most other cases, I feel that an america kickboxer would defeat a TKD competitor. Here are my reasons.

Boxing is the big one here. Now, there will probably be a lot of guys out there who will say, we incorporate boxing. I've been to lots of TKD schools that make this claim. Most of them didn't. Boxing is more than the jab, cross, hook and uppercut which is about all I saw from schools making this claim. They essentially were combining TKD blocking techniques with basic boxing punches. You have to immerse yourself in boxing under a good coach to really learn it. These things that were lacking included footwork, covering, head evasion, combinations, boxing clinch, creating space with the elbows, in-fighting, parrying, etc.

Attempting to use blocks against a skilled boxer is a good way to end up getting coloring books for your birthday for the rest of your life. You have to have those attributes listed above and sadly, most TKD schools I visited never explored boxing past the first 4 basic punches.

Secondly is punch and kick combinations... again lacking except in the most basic sense. Backfist and skipping sidekick won't get you very far.

I could probably go on for days on this topic, but Boxing is my big issue and virtually every school I have ever been to, and I'm not ust harping on TKD but most martial arts that claim to make it a part of their curriculum, were sadly lacking in it.

[tkd_person89]

EXCESSIVE... don't be a wise ass... you know what i meant

do you think it is ineffective for fights and full contact competitions like K-1

[eXcessiveForce]

for k-1 it might work okay, I don't know what other fights you are talking about.

it's the fighter not the style though

[tkd_person89]

"might work okay"...

why won't it work "fine" or "well"?

hmm? care to explain? i see nothign wrong with martial arts that are also sport.

[eXcessiveForce]

Why do you not understand.

It is the fighter not the style. IF you are a good fighter you will make your style work for you. If you aren't you won't.

In competition it is you vs. somebody else. The better prepared, conditioned and lucky fighter wins.

Could someone use TKD in K1 effectively, maybe. It depends on that person and their training.

So far it has not been done.

The only way to know is to try it.

Aren't you the one who threw a hissy when somebody called tkd a sport?

[Piston]

There are a couple of legitimate points I would like to make in regards to the original question. I personally do not feel that one art is better than the other, but I do feel that certain training methods and structures are more sound. In the ring and in most other cases, I feel that an america kickboxer would defeat a TKD competitor. Here are my reasons.

Boxing is the big one here. Now, there will probably be a lot of guys out there who will say, we incorporate boxing. I've been to lots of TKD schools that make this claim. Most of them didn't. Boxing is more than the jab, cross, hook and uppercut which is about all I saw from schools making this claim. They essentially were combining TKD blocking techniques with basic boxing punches. You have to immerse yourself in boxing under a good coach to really learn it. These things that were lacking included footwork, covering, head evasion, combinations, boxing clinch, creating space with the elbows, in-fighting, parrying, etc.

Attempting to use blocks against a skilled boxer is a good way to end up getting coloring books for your birthday for the rest of your life. You have to have those attributes listed above and sadly, most TKD schools I visited never explored boxing past the first 4 basic punches.

Secondly is punch and kick combinations... again lacking except in the most basic sense. Backfist and skipping sidekick won't get you very far.

I could probably go on for days on this topic, but Boxing is my big issue and virtually every school I have ever been to, and I'm not ust harping on TKD but most martial arts that claim to make it a part of their curriculum, were sadly lacking in it.

What you've said there is quite legitamate apart from one crucial thing. All these skills you've listed are assuming that your opponenet is gonna box as well.

And secondly, if these schools claim to incorporate all of boxing into their curriculum, they might as well just be a boxing school like you've stated. You can't just incorporate boxing into another MA because it by itself is its own system of fighting. You're very right in knocking these schools that claim to add boxing to their curriculum.

[tkd_person89]

Excessive... you claim TKD hasn't been succesfful yet in K-1... but it's not like anyone good actually tried to.

Secondly, that argument I think has no warrant to it because if that were true, that would mean all of the other hundreds and hundreds of styles of kung fu and karate that haven't seen success in K-1 are ineffective for hard, full contact competitions. Your comment is suggesting, then, that full contact competitions are only for Muay Thai and Boxing and Kyokushin b/c they are the only ones that have found success, no?

[gabbah]

Really? You'd never kick in a real situation? I have done twice being very effective, once to the ribs and the 2nd time to the head, it ended the confrontation very quickly.

Well I guess it depends. I would say I have good thai kicks, but even so it depends on the type of "fight".
If it's "self defence", with the meaning most people put into that - a threat to your life - then no, I wouldn't kick, as I might very well end up on the bottom in a ground fight. We're of course already assuming escape is not an option (although in most cases it is). In a really dangerous situation, with one opponent that wants to hurt me REALLY bad, I would probably box. If he really wants to hurt me he will close the distance fast, so if I kick I will land on the bottom of the ground fight even if I hit him (unless I'm VERY lucky and knock him out).

Now, if it's a "fight", something I would call pride/ego fight, it's more a thing of proving who's the strongest male. It's basically a status fight.
Those kind of fights I picture as escalating with showing and finally fists. In this kind of fight a lot of circling and fast attacks with just as fast retreat is more common I think. In this kind of fight I might use kicks. High kicks only if he's fairly static. Kicking the head is as easy as kicking the ribs for me, so yeah, I might do it in that case, just to show the guy I can kick him in tha head, so he won't want to fight me.
But most probably I would just talk myself out of the fight or leave.

[eXcessiveForce]

Dude, there was no arguement.

It is unknown. thus maybe and might.

Not certain like, would be, or is.

[Maxx]

What you've said there is quite legitamate apart from one crucial thing. All these skills you've listed are assuming that your opponenet is gonna box as well.

And secondly, if these schools claim to incorporate all of boxing into their curriculum, they might as well just be a boxing school like you've stated. You can't just incorporate boxing into another MA because it by itself is its own system of fighting. You're very right in knocking these schools that claim to add boxing to their curriculum.

That's very true, Piston. During a general class introducing the basic boxing punches I think is enough, but I feel that the instuctor, if he is going to make such a claim, should pursue the training himself and be ready to provide that extra information for those students that want it... in some cases it might even be valid to hire a boxing instructor and have him teach a class once or twice a week, assuming that the school can handle the cost.

The reason that I mentioned boxing as a major issue though is due to their defensive skills. They are highly efficient... moreso than standard blocking techniques... I've seen people who were absolutely fantastic kickers who could do virtually nothing against someone with basic parrying and covering skills.