kickboxing for self defense

[Adept]

I know Adept doesn't like it when I start free styling my answers

More like I could careless as long as you don't act like some Crusader hell-bent on converting everyone to YOUR certain beliefs. Just give your opinion and be on your way and we'll all be happy. Don't get mad and blow up when other people have different views, opinions, or beliefs.

[hEmPY]

LOL

seriosly would u give yo time for high-,mid-kicks and fag pants

aahahahahaahahahahahahahaah

[hEmPY]

LOL

darrianation, u need help dood

I wont be surprized if ur a terrorist

aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[gabbah]

What I'm wondering is if it's really worth the time learning to kick when it comes to self defense. Isn't it better just putting that time training something else, like punching, knees and clinch. And groundwork. And some weapon training maybe?

I dunno, I just think it takes to much time to learn to kick with force, and most of the time a kick will not end things. It's hard to actually land a kick in a heated situation and hit an vital spot that will actually end things.

Having said that, once you have learned to kick good, I would say landing a kick to the head in a fight against a guy that hasn't trained against kicks may not be that hard actually. At least if you use a thai roundhouse. At least that is what I see all the time when I sparr beginners. The kick to the head is always percieved like a kick to the midsection by them, so they lower their hands. I can make four such kicks in succession and they will still bring their hands down, leaving their head exposed to my kick.
So it seems that reaction will be there for sure. So if I would throw that kick to an angry dude I'm pretty sure it would land on his head, with a good chance of knocking him out.
Of course, since I wear jeans a lot they would probably not let me kick that high anyway...
So to conclude, I would say kicks should not be a part of self defense combat or whatever.
These are just some thoughts of mine I wanted some feedback on... so gimme your thoughts!

[darrianation]

Kick boxing in self-defense.

I think there is some truth in your assertion. I strongly believe you can be very successful at learning and applying self-defense without learning to kick. I think boxing is a wonderful sport and the dominate punching ‘art” (if you will).

Kick boxing is trained as a sport and is influenced by the chosen measures and driving forces within the structure of the sport. Self-defense has a different set of measures and driving pressures.

For instance…

In sport you have two guys who have agreed to fight. You know who you will be fighting, when, and where. You will have time to prepare yourself both mentally and physically before fight time. You will know the rules which are predefined and you will be wearing the proper attire.

Within this structure there is lower risk of severe injury and safety to do things you would not want to do in the street. Clothing and a warm-up will allow you to kick to your opponent’s head maybe a high round kick or an ax kick, etc. If you slip and fall the ref steps in and keeps your opponent from beating you while you lie on the ground (canvass) and can stop the fight if you are injured….etc.

In self-defense there are no predefined rules. Your opponent is free to pick up an object off the ground (or from his pocket/waistband) and use it to hit (stab or shoot) you. He is free to call in his friends. There is no mental or physical preparation (especially if you are blindsided in an ambush), your clothing and footwear may restrict you from performing certain movements and lack of a warm-up and stretch may cause injury in some folks and slip and falls may increase with trying some of these “high kicks”, etc.

However, low oriented kicks can prove to be an asset in street combat. Maybe a low Muay Thai style round kick to your opponent’s thigh or calf area, or an angle kick to your opponent’s knee area. If you happen to be wearing boots for instance straight on kicks to your opponents shins may prove to be extremely painful to him (toe of boot or inside/outside blade of shoe). Push kicks to the lower abdomen (around the belt line), spike kick to the groin, etc, can all have some impact on outcomes as long as you are prepared to follow up those kicks with other movements, strikes, and etc.

We cannot count on the kick to stop the fight anymore than we can count on any single strike to end it, its just one component that leads to or opens up other possibilities.

However, if you feel strongly that kicking is a waste of time or too dangerous (for the user) to apply in self-defense I certainly understand and respect that.

[hEmPY]

kicks ain shit

but just kicks iz like condom without a cock

LOL

[EmptyneSs]

kicks ain shit

but just kicks iz like condom without a cock

LOL

too many bongloads today or what?

[gabbah]

darrianation, I agree with pretty much all you said.

I'm still not convinced that it's worth the time training even lowkicks. Most of the time you will have to land several lowkicks before there's any real effect on the opponent (assuming only one).
The attack that people in general really "respect" and are afraid of are attacks to the face (normally punches), and to the groin I would say. You get a BIG reaction from the opponent when you aim at the head or groin, which gives you time to setup a better attack or to flee. For instance, ALL untrained people close their eyes when a punch is about to hit them, even if it then misses. This is a huge advantage that a boxer will take advantage of.*
A natural instinct is to grab any kick that comes to your waist or legs even and then rush forward... so that's also why I wouldn't recommend kicks.
I like to work off natural instincts, natural reactions.
And I say this even though a LOVE kicks myself (thai kicks), and am technically one of the best in my gym at it.
I still say put the time on punching or grappling, instead of going all that time learning to kick hard, fast and controlled without loosing balance.
Pushkicks have very very little chance of ending the fight. And if you land it you will have to train a long time to actually be able to follow up affectively, as it's mostly meant for stopping your opponent from moving forward, or to push him backward a bit.

Also, it's true that sport has limitations such as one on one. But they still give you good reflexes. For instance when I was attacked from the side and was pretty drunk, after one blow to the side of my head which pushed me off balance, I already had my guard up, shoulders rolled forward and up, shin down, using good footwork to move away. Took some further shots on the guard and a hard one on my shoulder, which would have knocked me out for sure if I didn't have that guard. I didn't see my attacker. Pure reflex reaction from all the time sparring... So even though I haven't trained while being drunk, with threats coming from any direction, my reaction was still probably the best it could be at that time; move away and stay protected while doing so.
That being said, boxing is good but not optimal I think when it comes to self defense. You train with big gloves, which means you can place your glove on your forehead to block a punch (at the same time protecting your midsection). But for selfdefense I would like an answer-the-phone kind of block, where you bring your elbow a lot higher, protecting the head better (but exposing your midsection of course). Most people can't kick or punch worth the shit to the midsection anyway, and they will most often attack the head anyway.

No, I would say pucnhes, good guard, clinch and knees, takedown defense and grappling is the fundamentals when it comes to the fighting part of SD.

Just some thoughts in an mess.


*hehe, btw this is so funny if I sparr someone that is not so used to sparring. As soon as I see them going too deep into their guard (tucking their chin so far down they loose eye contact with me), or they actually close their eyes, I always use footwork to move off to their side. Then they look up and don't even know where I am, so I land a few shots and then repeat haha :P
I never hit them hard mind, but they are so tense they are exhausted when the round is finished... and they thank me with a big smile because they discover something. :P

[hEmPY]

your wrong here dood

lowkicks wont knockout a trained fighter for sure, but they slow him down. that could be as much good as knockin him out. Espacially when the guy is speed. If u wont use lowkicks at all against a lowkick fighter you'll be at high disadvantage.

LOL

[gabbah]

your wrong here dood

lowkicks wont knockout a trained fighter for sure, but they slow him down. that could be as much good as knockin him out. Espacially when the guy is speed. If u wont use lowkicks at all against a lowkick fighter you'll be at high disadvantage.

LOL

Against lowkick fighter? ehm.. are you talking about a fight on the street or in the ring? In the ring of course I use lowkicks.
But how many real fights have you seen where one of them start throwing lowkicks??
How much does a lowkick actually affect a fighter high on adrenaline? It sure wouldn't stop him from rushing you as you throw it, taking you down... I'd rather try to kick him in the nuts in that case I think.

[darrianation]

gabbah: I'm still not convinced that it's worth the time training even lowkicks. Most of the time you will have to land several lowkicks before there's any real effect on the opponent (assuming only one).

I agree with you here. Low kicks won’t be knocking your opponent out, but it may give him something to think about. The idea in a street fight (the way I see it) is to overwhelm him psychologically and an onslaught of multiple levels of attack may be what’s called for (but then again maybe not).

I have what I call CQ-kicks that are applied from the clinch, this is knees strikes and toe or blade of shoe kicks to the shins with foot stomps very aggressive repeated strikes. If he is in close (chest to chest) or hips in tight we can headbutt or eye gouge, knee and foot stomp. The idea here is to force him to move his hips back, now you can kick his shins which may be a good set up for an osoto gari or throwing the elbows now that he is in range. Or it may help you to maintain control of the clinch as you move him backward into a wall maybe, or over a curb, etc.

The push kick can keep a larger guy at bay and you away from his devastating right cross if only for a moment but in the moment maybe you can get to your knife, or break for the exit, etc. Other than that kicks are simply tools that may provide you with more options like landing your right cross, etc, just for an example.

However, I still agree that kicks are not an absolute necessity.

[bigred389]

Coming off boxing and Thai boxing, I wasn't convinced that ANY low kick could be used effectively to stop an opponent who's rushing in to punch.

Recently, I've taken up Pekiti Tirsia Kali. We were shown a low kick which using the bottom(arch) of the foot was swung to intercept the low leg.

Being skeptical, I asked what exactly is the purpose of this? I just didn't really think it had any "real" potential for stopping a legitimate charging threat(eg 300 lb linebacker readying a haymaker).

My training partner, with more experience, who I also outweigh by about 50 pounds, told me to throw a right cross. I complied, and he used the low kick combined with a parry which basically almost took me off balance.

It was useful in that instance to push/stop the pivot point(the other guy's foot/leg) further back, while his upper body is free to move forward. But since the foot is stopped, the upper body is easily redirected by controlling the punches.

And my trajectory after that parry was setting me up for an easy knee to the face or ribs anyway.

I know this isn't exactly a story about a Thai low kick blasting somebody's leg to oblivion, but it was just a very interesting experience for me to see a different, somewhat "softer" application of a low kick variation.

[darrianation]

gabbah

The attack that people in general really "respect" and are afraid of are attacks to the face (normally punches), and to the groin I would say. You get a BIG reaction from the opponent when you aim at the head or groin, which gives you time to setup a better attack or to flee.

I agree. The head is a primary with a lot of bang for the buck, and even if you don’t knock him out it is an attack that weighs heavily on their psyche.

A natural instinct is to grab any kick that comes to your waist or legs even and then rush forward... so that's also why I wouldn't recommend kicks.

Yes, this is always a risk.

I still say put the time on punching or grappling, instead of going all that time learning to kick hard, fast and controlled without loosing balance.

I try not to learn to kick with control (I mean to pull it so my partner won’t cry). Instead I train every strike with full emotional commitment to bad intent (to do maximal damage). But then again I am not a sports type. But just so you know we use the appropriate gear and quantities of ibuprofen that allows us to go hard with some measure of safety and the head aches won’t last as long.

Pushkicks have very very little chance of ending the fight. And if you land it you will have to train a long time to actually be able to follow up affectively, as it's mostly meant for stopping your opponent from moving forward, or to push him backward a bit.

Again, good insight, but this is the exact effect you want to use it for in a street fight. Sometimes due to the insidious nature of self-defense (meaning often times we will be reactive at best) we have to manage the environment in such away that we first protect ourselves from devastating losses before moving on to counter attack. This maybe covering from a sudden haymaker to your head or that push kick from the guy winding up and stepping in (or other default type positions). Then we can look at what other options are available to us.

Also, it's true that sport has limitations such as one on one. But they still give you good reflexes. For instance when I was attacked from the side and was pretty drunk, after one blow to the side of my head which pushed me off balance, I already had my guard up, shoulders rolled forward and up, shin down, using good footwork to move away.

Hey bro’ you have no need to convince me of that. Sports rather it’s football wrestling, or gymnastics all have great physical attribute building qualities. When it comes to combat sports i.e. boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, etc, even have a closer relation to the attributes needed in street combat.

Although I am not a sport type now, doesn’t mean I have never been. I use to compete in wrestling, Muay Thai, and karate and loved it. I still love watching these skilled athletes take it to the mat or ring and do their thing. I am a believer in those skills do carry over in the street, why wouldn’t they? But those extreme athletes train for their event not self-defense but that doesn’t make them any less potent.

That being said, boxing is good but not optimal I think when it comes to self defense. You train with big gloves, which means you can place your glove on your forehead to block a punch (at the same time protecting your midsection). But for selfdefense I would like an answer-the-phone kind of block, where you bring your elbow a lot higher, protecting the head better (but exposing your midsection of course).

You pretty much described the high elbow shield, which is my primary default position. From here (after managing any devastating losses) you can move into any number of counter attacks.

No, I would say pucnhes, good guard, clinch and knees, takedown defense and grappling is the fundamentals when it comes to the fighting part of SD.

Sounds like a good plan.

What I suggest (kicking wise) is only one way but most definitely not the only way. I think that everyone has to evaluate the risks and the merit and then go form there. I still maintain that with kicking you have more options than you will without them.

[darrianation]

I just wanted to add,

I think when the shit hits the fan only a limited portion of your training will be accessible, at least in the beginning, it will most likely be something you have repeatably used successfully in unscripted training such as sparring.

So, what I am trying to say is that if you spar with kicks and are comfortable with them and successful with them, you may throw kicks (or combos such as a jab, cross, round kick) during this initial phase of contact rather you meant to or not. Just the way the brain works. You fight like you train and your subconscious brain trusts things you can effectively apply in unscripted conditions i.e. sparring.

[gabbah]

Thanks for your reply.

I agree. The head is a primary with a lot of bang for the buck, and even if you don’t knock him out it is an attack that weighs heavily on their psyche.

And more importantly, even if you miss the shot you will get you opponent to react in a defensive manner. We who sparr a lot can much easier see when a punch will be able to hit us. But most street thugs with no training react a lot more to attacks, because they can't see that a certain punch or kick cannot hurt them, and that another one can. Like I said, even a glancing blow to the face will get him to shut his eyes probably, which is worth a lot!

I mean, you do not train self defense to fight against a trained fighter, but more to do well against a typcial street thug. At least I think that's what most people are looking for when they think SD.

Now, about the push kick. I just think it takes too much training to be able to do such a push kick that is
1 effective
2 let's you stay in balance
3 is pulled back fast enough so that it isn't grabbed (again, natural instinct). Even trained fighters will let the push kick fall straight down after impact, making it easier to grab.

Most time it will be a sorry excuse for a push kick. It takes time to do it relaxed, and use the HIP (push it forward, perhaps with a slight rotation) to get the power behind it.

You pretty much described the high elbow shield, which is my primary default position. From here (after managing any devastating losses) you can move into any number of counter attacks.

Yes, with this you can block hooks as well as straight punches (by turning slightly).
I have watched lots of fight vids with people fighting that have no or only little training. The first punch is always with their default hand (so usually the right). No kicks or strikes to the body, they always go for the face.
So high elbow block when they throw their power punch then straight right to the face should work in many cases, then follow up with hooks or clinch plus knees.

What I suggest (kicking wise) is only one way but most definitely not the only way. I think that everyone has to evaluate the risks and the merit and then go form there. I still maintain that with kicking you have more options than you will without them.

I feel that a SD class should have as few techniques as possible. So yes, it gives you more options, but also it takes time from perfecting TRULY effective tools.
And like you said, when you're in heat, only the most trained tools will be used. And I argue that knees and punches (and elbows) should be focused on, cutting out the kicks for above given reasons.
Just learing footwork and boxing takes so much time! That's why I'm looking to minimize the number of tools to learn and only inlclude the most effective ones. And it those tools should be molded into the brain. Also fight patterns should be drilled. Just watch a lot of street fights. It's always the same pattern. So drilling those patterns should give you a good chance against an untrained fighter (that will make all the classical/instinctual misstakes). Of course tons of live training too.

So, what I am trying to say is that if you spar with kicks and are comfortable with them and successful with them, you may throw kicks (or combos such as a jab, cross, round kick) during this initial phase of contact rather you meant to or not. Just the way the brain works. You fight like you train and your subconscious brain trusts things you can effectively apply in unscripted conditions i.e. sparring.

Yes I personally could use kicks because I have trained them so much. But I would not include them in SD in general for others to learn. It's not worth it.
Of course, once they are good at the core things one could add lowkicks and pushkicks... but it takes TIME! :P