Silat Mubai: Muslim Silat Combatives

[Uke]

Uke (and others),
People like to complain about how awful "we" as a government are in the US. But seriously - look around. Find a place that provides more for immigrants, for the poor, for the hungry, and find a place that provides more opportunity on the whole to make up for the gaps.

Anyone who complains that we aren't the greatest nation is full of crap. Everyone is dying to get in the USA and barely anyone wants to leave. We don't force people to stay here either. They are free to leave. But they stay, and take advantage.

My post wasn't to argue the fact that we aren't the greatest nation. It was simply saying that as great as we may be, we are not morally superior to anyone as we have gone through much of the same mistakes others are currently making today.

While people may be persecuted in other countries for teaching christianity, christianity has been brought to most corners of the world at the end of a barrel. Most of Africa, including the Middle East which was considered North Eastern Africa before the creation of the Suez Canal, was converted to Christianity during the Holy Crusades. So I can forgive them if they aren't fond of it being taught in their country.

But most people won't take things like that into consideration.

I see where it is that you're coming from as far as the dialogue we've had, Mike. I'm not defending Mr. Hussein's organization or anyone's organization for that matter. I am just commenting on statements that I personally feel interest me. Your debate with Mr Hussein is your own.

[medic06]

NO problem. We definitely need to get the word out on all these opportunities out there because too many of our youth are sliding into poverty.

[Tom Yum]

NO problem. We definitely need to get the word out on all these opportunities out there because too many of our youth are sliding into poverty.

Damned pop culture doesn't help.

I'm not saying its not entertaining and fun, but living vicariously thru entertainment puts some bad ideas into young uns heads.

[treelizard]

I volunteer at a drop-in shelter that provides meals, clothing, showers, laundry detergent, use of washers and driers, free lunches, makeup and other toiletries, razors, blankets, sleeping bags, and more to homeless women. They also offer a telephone message service, freebus passes, mailing addresses, job postings, classified ads, classes on job application and interview techniques, and of course there are beds available. There are also case managers available to help with job searching, provide housing referrals and other referrals for those in crisis, food, etc. In addition they have a temporary day labor program where they pay a minimum of $5.75/hr in addition to providing transportation assistance, free lunch and work equipment. They match workers with jobs. They have transitional housing and affordable housing options in addition to the shelter.

[Ustaz Hussein]

Replies and Clarifications

Hello again Gentlemen,

I've taken a few minutes and looked over your comments and I agree and disagree with alot of what you say. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to invest into this debate anymore.

I hope it was at least somewhat useful/interesting to you all.

Best wishes of health to you and your families.

Ustaz Hussein

[medic06]

Medic - I'm sensing some sarcasm from you here...call me psychic or something, but I'm definitely getting a "vibe."

Fact is, opportunity in this nation comes from a willingness to go out and work. Not sell drugs, not peddle flesh, not rob or cheat or steal from your neighbors. Our country is willing to help out in tons of small and large ways, from people who give spare change to beggars to government programs like welfare, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, VFW, homeless shelters, grants and scholarships for minorities and the poor, and dozens of others. but too many people think that the point of these programs is to give them money to live on and food to eat. It's not. It's to give them a boost so that they don't have to worry about their basic needs while they are picking themselves up. The problem isn't a lack of opportunity. The problem is a lack of personal responsibility and drive. Instead of taking government handouts just long enough to make something of themselves - for themselves - too many people try to milk the system and live on nothing but handouts. It's mothers who use children as an excuse to get more food stamps, and then sell those food stamps to buy drugs. It's people who will work at "underthe table" jobs while collecting unemployment. It's these and all sorts of other fraud that makes it seem like you can't catch a break. But the fact is, America is a society that wants to see you succeed. It's a society that would be happy if each and every person within its borders made their fortunes and lived their own little dream, because that would make us an infinitely stronger country. But you're always going to have people who'd rather cop out and try to sucker the system. And it's usually those same scammers that are btching loudest about how little their government does for them...

At another time you might be right, but I say this from the heart. Many dont' know of the opportunities out there.

[treelizard]

Organizations in Tucson:

Caridad
COPE
Chicanos por la Causa
El Rio Health Center
El Rio Neighborhood Health Center
Habitat for Humanity
La Frontera
NRC - Neighborhood Reinvestment Corporation/NeighborWorks Network
New Chance (a collaboration between Primavera, Jackson Employment Center, Casa Santa Arizona Housing and Prevention Services)
Old Pueblo Community Foundation
Primavera Foundation
RISE, Inc.
Salvation Army
SAMHC
Southwest Center for Economic Integrity
TPCH/ Operation Deep Freeze
Tucson Community Food Bank
Tucson Planning Council for the Homeless
Veterans Administration Homeless Program
Veterans Administration Substance Abuse Treatment Center
Veterans Administration Homeless Outreach Program
Vocational Rehabilitation (D.E.S)

[Uke]

Medic - I'm sensing some sarcasm from you here...call me psychic or something, but I'm definitely getting a "vibe."

Fact is, opportunity in this nation comes from a willingness to go out and work. Not sell drugs, not peddle flesh, not rob or cheat or steal from your neighbors. Our country is willing to help out in tons of small and large ways, from people who give spare change to beggars to government programs like welfare, food stamps, WIC, unemployment, VFW, homeless shelters, grants and scholarships for minorities and the poor, and dozens of others. but too many people think that the point of these programs is to give them money to live on and food to eat. It's not. It's to give them a boost so that they don't have to worry about their basic needs while they are picking themselves up. The problem isn't a lack of opportunity. The problem is a lack of personal responsibility and drive. Instead of taking government handouts just long enough to make something of themselves - for themselves - too many people try to milk the system and live on nothing but handouts. It's mothers who use children as an excuse to get more food stamps, and then sell those food stamps to buy drugs. It's people who will work at "underthe table" jobs while collecting unemployment. It's these and all sorts of other fraud that makes it seem like you can't catch a break. But the fact is, America is a society that wants to see you succeed. It's a society that would be happy if each and every person within its borders made their fortunes and lived their own little dream, because that would make us an infinitely stronger country. But you're always going to have people who'd rather cop out and try to sucker the system. And it's usually those same scammers that are btching loudest about how little their government does for them...

I agree with much of what you said, Mike. That's the truth, straight up. However, I'd like to add that America's biggest problem is its education. All the problems that have been listed on this thread can be attributed to a lack of practical education. Not just for children either.

The way to strengthen America is to strengthen the minds and ethics of Americans. Literature is great, and art is cool too. But children, especially poor to middle class children, need to a practical education from the start. They need to know how to manage money and invest it. They need to know the value of the dollar, so they can realize that "bling" doesn't equal security. Just momentary gratification. Poor children are taught to "See spot run", instead of the realities of living in a capitalist society. Education isn't even stressed in poor neighborhoods, which is why so many kids focus on trying to get a record deal or get in the NBA, NFL or the MLB. When they fail, as only a small percentage of people who try to make it to the pros actually do, they don't even have a decent education to fall back on. They don't even have a good understanding of how the white collar world works. So when they try to get a job that pays $6.50 an hour and are fired because of lack of enthusiasm, they say "f*ck it" and figure if the can't worl for the system, they'll make the system work for them. That's when the drugs come into play. That's when the welfare fraud comes into play. That's when the easy money comes, which is the biggest lure and the worst thing that can happen to a young man happens.

Education is the answer. Not once they get to college either. What's the point of teaching a child Shakespeare if he winds up working as a garbageman as a career? How did it enhance his life? How did it help bolster his chances for success? A garbageman is a noble and honest occupation, but if a garbageman had the choice, he much rather be a lawer, a doctor or an investment banker with a degree from Wharton.

Shamefully, children who attend the "rich kids" school may not even be as bright as some of the poor kids, but the fact that they are alumni from such prestigious schools gives them an edge and preferential treatment. The american curriculum needs to focus on preparing all children for the economic realities that exist in this country today. Enough with learning about foreign history. Enough with teaching poetry. English class should be about learning reading, writing and comprehension and nothing more. English Lit does NOT prepare children to balance a checkbook. Learning about ancient history won't help children to understand the importance of saving for a retirement fund. Art class won't teach kids about IRA's, mutual funds, blue chips and the importance of diversifying their portfolio. Shakespeare doesn't teach kids how to trade on the NASDAQ or how to look for trends.

How many poor people own shares of ANY stock? Its not that they can't afford it, because a lot of poor people drive expensive cars and have expensive clothes. Poor people's priorities haven't been honed at their youth, so they grow into these "bling" trends.

In truth Mike, if you sincerely would like to end a lot of the welfare fraud and drug dealing in you're part of the woods, teach your young students life skills. You and I both know that public school can't be relied upon. Hold a weekend class once a month and teach them why its important to be safe physically but also financially. Afterall, its the lack of finances that creates the majority of crime. If you are honestly interested in teaching your students to "protect" themselves, why not arm them with knowledge on how to buy and sell stocks? Teach them about IRA's and mutual funds and IPO's. And most of all, teach them how rich people wear 20 dollar sneakers while poor, well dressed people wear $150.00 sneakers. I know that not everyone will be interested in what you have to say, but if you reach just a few and you see the change it might make, it will be worth it.

So in closing, we do live in a great country. But the idea that life skills and economic survival strategies are reserved for only the upper middle and rich class is a huge problem. And that same problem is what is truly responsible for the disproportionate amount of crime found in poor communities as opposed to affluent communities. Some people will say " We all have the same opportunities". This is not true, although some measure of an education is available to all. I can't stress this enough: You have to groom people as children or at least young teens to understand economic principles and realities, and to appreciate, recognize and capitalize on business opportunities. Since you already have your students' respect and admiration Mike, they might just listen because its you talking.

Give it a shot. Could it hurt? If you don't feel like you are well versed enough or have enough time, investment companies have volunteers who are willing to speak for free. But its just a matter of getting them interested and informed as soon as possible.

Just my 2 cents

PS I tried to post this hours ago as soon as Medic replied, but the site wouldn't load. Its amazing to me that some of these posts are in line with my own.

[cam427]

I agree that america is a great country where people have a lot of opportunity (it is nearly as good as Australia ). I actually intend to live there myself for a while (6 months or so) on my way home. I have spent a few months in new york a few years ago and loved it.

The main problem I see is not a lack of opportunity (although this is true in some places for some people) but a mindset where people seem to think that everything should be done for them. "I applied for 5 jobs and didn't get one so I cant get a job and will just sit on the sofa for the rest of my life", "The government should look after me", "Look how poor I am, I only have one TV", "blah blah blah".

My dad is from Barbados and during the sixties when he was young there was no work at all so he moved to New York for a few years and then to Canada and finally to New Zealand. He just kept gong until he was sucessful. He never expected anything from anyone he just worked his ass off to get where he wanted to go. If everyone were like that unemployment would be nearly non-existant.

In many poor countries people move to where the work is but it seems that people in richer countries think they are no longer required to do this and should just sit and wait for something to come along while sponging off other people.

I think that education is an important factor but I think one possible solution is the return of national service (compulsory armed service). I think that this has many benefits. It teaches people the life skills Uke was talking about like dealing with money, etc, but in an environment where they will always have somewhere to live and food on the table. It also teaches them self dicipline, builds confidence, builds assertivness and in many countries some of the pay can be put aside and used to send them to school/college when they leave.

Cam

[treelizard]

Contrary to popular belief, a healthy, able-bodied individual (meaning someone who is capable of working and not on disability) cannot continue to get welfare money unless they are actively applying for jobs. I believe it's three a week, or at least that's what it used to be. You don't have to take a job, of course, but you have to apply.

I do agree that there's a victim mindset that often comes into play in these situations, though. But when I lived in England, anybody could be homeless and get on "the dole" for as long as they wanted. At least here there are limits in place.

There are also other factors in place in the homeless population... addiction and mental illness are big ones.

[Tom Yum]

The way to strengthen America is to strengthen the minds and ethics of Americans. Literature is great, and art is cool too. But children, especially poor to middle class children, need to a practical education from the start. They need to know how to manage money and invest it. They need to know the value of the dollar, so they can realize that "bling" doesn't equal security. Just momentary gratification. Poor children are taught to "See spot run", instead of the realities of living in a capitalist society. Education isn't even stressed in poor neighborhoods, which is why so many kids focus on trying to get a record deal or get in the NBA, NFL or the MLB. When they fail, as only a small percentage of people who try to make it to the pros actually do, they don't even have a decent education to fall back on. They don't even have a good understanding of how the white collar world works. So when they try to get a job that pays $6.50 an hour and are fired because of lack of enthusiasm, they say "f*ck it" and figure if the can't worl for the system, they'll make the system work for them. That's when the drugs come into play. That's when the welfare fraud comes into play. That's when the easy money comes, which is the biggest lure and the worst thing that can happen to a young man happens..

I agree with your opinions on the education system.

A garbageman is a noble and honest occupation, but if a garbageman had the choice, he much rather be a lawer, a doctor or an investment banker with a degree from Wharton...

Actually I think the garbageman would rather be a thriving entreprenuer, but the point is taken. Not everyone wants to work on spin-offs to get SPE financing, albeit it is interesting.

Shamefully, children who attend the "rich kids" school may not even be as bright as some of the poor kids, but the fact that they are alumni from such prestigious schools gives them an edge and preferential treatment. The american curriculum needs to focus on preparing all children for the economic realities that exist in this country today. English class should be about learning reading, writing and comprehension and nothing more.

True. Children who attend rich kids schools will start off higher, but do they have real survival skills? That's a question that isn't easy to answer.

Being born or buying into a network doesn't guarantee success.

Look at Jeff Skilling these days and his colleagues; they were probably playing golf 5 years ago and now they're ripping each other apart.

English Lit does NOT prepare children to balance a checkbook. Learning about ancient history won't help children to understand the importance of saving for a retirement fund. Art class won't teach kids about IRA's, mutual funds, blue chips and the importance of diversifying their portfolio. Shakespeare doesn't teach kids how to trade on the NASDAQ or how to look for trends.

neither does it teach how to go "straddle the dong"....get it, get it

How many poor people own shares of ANY stock? Its not that they can't afford it, because a lot of poor people drive expensive cars and have expensive clothes. Poor people's priorities haven't been honed at their youth, so they grow into these "bling" trends..

I agree with you in the context that we need to re-capture kids hearts and minds from trying to live vicariously through pop-culture. Nothing wrong from enjoying it though.

[treelizard]

Pop culture is evil.

[Tom Yum]

Pop culture is evil.

Tree Lizard is evil.

[Uke]

True. Children who attend rich kids schools will start off higher, but do they have real survival skills? That's a question that isn't easy to answer.

Being born or buying into a network doesn't guarantee success.

Look at Jeff Skilling these days and his colleagues; they were probably playing golf 5 years ago and now they're ripping each other apart.

Do you know what this comment reminds me of? The movie "Trading Places", with Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd. Aykroyd played Louis Winthorpe III, and is snatched out of his privileged life over a $1 bet. He is totally inept as he has no survival skills. However, given the right conditions and the right arena, he makes everyone who is in cahoots with him millionaires.

My point? You are correct Tom, when you state that they have little survival skills. But that is because they usually lead sheltered lives. But they are still equipped to play in the arenas of life where the big dollars are made. They are put in positions so that they don't have to consider selling drugs just to make ends meet. More importantly, these skills have been taught to their parents, and their parents before them, so that by the time the grandchildren are born, a pattern of discipline and success has already been achieved. All that the grandchildren have to do is continue along the path that has been laid for them.

Poor people usually have no such path. The usual way for poor people to get a financial come up is from insurance policies when a loved one dies, or from lawsuits. And even when they get the money, even if its 100k, they usually blow it on cars, clothes and bling. None of those appreciate with time, but at least the bling doesn't depreciate. But that demonstrates what I've been saying: Poor people don't know where to put their chips, while the privileged are groomed from birth to know where their chips should go.

To know the difference you must know someone from the other walk of life. I have a friend who would still be richer than me if I hit the lotto five times. He comes from old money. He got to network in all the right circles, with friends like the governor's daughter. He's Yale alumni. See, my point is he grew up with these privileges already in place. That's not to say that he hasn't ever worked hard, but he was groomed to succeed from birth, by men who were groomed by men who were groomed.

That is the sort of legacy we should strive to leave our children. A legacy of success, or at least "know-how", and not just debt without direction. You'd all be surprised at how little poor children and teens know. American schools are graduating teens that cannot read. They are pushing and promoting children through high schools like cattle. And now because of Bush's asinine "Leave no child behind" policy, even children who need the extra help and attention are being promoted regardless of their level of competency. I know it sounds like a conspiracy, but the ignorance of the lower to middle class is systematic. They receive a diploma, no questions asked, as if that's their passport to success. Nowadays, even Bachelor degrees are second rate. Businesses are looking for Master degrees and doctorates. A friend of mine who is a high school teacher told me that they no longer just want a Bachelor degree. He is back in college getting his Masters degree so that he can promote kids who can barely even read.

Until this kind of systematic sabotage that begins in elementary school ends, the American children will continue to become less and less educated and their chances to achieve financial freedom are crippled. So the 10%, who are the rich privileged children, will grow up to control 90% of the wealth. This is America's little "caste" system. Its not White. Its not black. Its green and its first name is Cash and its last name is Nepotism.

[Uke]

I agree that america is a great country where people have a lot of opportunity (it is nearly as good as Australia ). I actually intend to live there myself for a while (6 months or so) on my way home. I have spent a few months in new york a few years ago and loved it.

I cannot substantiate this Cam, but I was told that Black Americans cannot become citizens of Australia. A military buddy of mine told me this. Is he full of sh!t or is there some truth to this?

PS After re-reading some of my posts, I realized that I have made some of the most horrible typos. Forgive me, forum members. I am not the best typist, but my ideas are solid. But still my typos are so bad I'm tempted to edit my old posts.