Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[Thai Bri]

No thanks.

As for this "I'm just saying that with experience and constant practice a large library of techniques become natural to perform, especially in a street fight."

I've been alive three times the length of time you have, and have been fighting ever since I can remember. I honestly think you are wrong.

[sun fist]

Thai Bri, what style do you practice?

I don't care how much you fight or have been alive, I personally have know problems when it comes to performing a large number of techniques. Have you ever once considered that a lot of techniques come more naturally to me than they do to you? Have you considered that others can perform a lot of techniques like me with natural ease? Do you consider that before you go telling me I'm wrong? I'm plainly stating my own opinion and you people seem to think I'm acting like a book of answers to everything!I'm just giving my opinion like all the other people on this forum!

[Tom Yum]

Back to the subject

Boxing vs. Traditional MA - Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu

In the US, boxers train harder and condition more than TMAs. They extensively work on leg conditioning and reflexes while learning how to take a hit. TMAs assume boxing is all upperbody and practice either defending against static 1 or 2 arm "locked out" punches or spar via point fighting strikes - backhand, ridgehand or reverse punch.

IMO boxers are better prepared for fighting than TMAs (see Shotokan Planet). Who will react better if someone hits them in real life self defense?

Boxing vs. Other Standup arts

Against muay thai or san shou it really depends on whether the boxer understands the strategies of the others and can implement his/her own. It can go either way depending on the rules, but if a boxer ignores the threat leg kicks, knees and throwing he could loose.

Boxing vs MMA

I would tend to favor the MMA. Even pro-heavyweight Shannon Briggs admitted that ground work and leg kicks are something that he has to adjust to.

Boxing is a great fighting base. Its effectiveness cannot be denied but its limitations are visible. There's a good reason why other fighters cross train in boxing.

[chris davis 200]

In the US, boxers train harder and condition more than TMAs. They extensively work on leg conditioning and reflexes while learning how to take a hit. TMAs assume boxing is all upperbody and practice either defending against static 1 or 2 arm "locked out" punches or spar via point fighting strikes - backhand, ridgehand or reverse punch.

I agree with you that the majority of boxing gyms train to a much more intense extent to the most 'Martial arts' schools.

What has to be appriciated here is that about 80% of MA schools in the West (and to an extent the east) claiming to be traditional or 'authentic' are nothing of the sort.

How many 2,3 dan black belts are around teaching - at this level you are a beginner.

I think that this percentage of low grade fighters claiming mastery can be ignored.

If we are talking about boxing vs traditional arts we need to look at the 'real' traditional arts. Go to the lineage source.

You can say - 'yeh but there are more good boxers than good MA's' Not if we take into account every style of MA. Muay Thai, kali, JKD, Kyokushinkai Karate, Japanese JuJutsu, Internal Chinese arts, External chinese arts (well over 50 styles of kung fu many including moves that look very very similar to boxing) etc etc etc.

I honestly think that if we look at the current MA picture vs the current Boxing picture - the obvious choice is Boxing for the reasons stated by Tom yum.

But if we look at the 'real' Martial arts, with good lineage and look at their training methods it is a different story.

I would say that an expert in MA of many styles would defeat a straight boxer in an out and out situation.

Reason: more moves.

If a boxer had his arm broken in a fight he would have one weapon left, if he injured that wrist he would have none. Not a nice situation!

I spar regularly with a very good boxer, he always says its a sport. He recognises that it gives you a good punch, and VERY good fitness but it gives you little else. He now trains in tradtitional JuJutsu as well.

cheers
chris

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by sun fist
I don't care how much you fight or have been alive, I personally have know problems when it comes to performing a large number of techniques. Have you ever once considered that a lot of techniques come more naturally to me than they do to you? Have you considered that others can perform a lot of techniques like me with natural ease? Do you consider that before you go telling me I'm wrong? I'm plainly stating my own opinion and you people seem to think I'm acting like a book of answers to everything!I'm just giving my opinion like all the other people on this forum!

Have you ever considered that you have never had to fight for your life? You sound like a bright button. Be bright enough to realise your present limitations. Only then can you set about surpassing them.

[chris davis 200]

Sun Fist -

Quiet time!

[Gom]

How many 2,3 dan black belts are around teaching - at this level you are a beginner.

Depends on what style you are studying and how fast their grading system is. Keep in mind that some systems take a long time to get a black belt. In some karate dojos (McDojos) you can get a black within 1 or 2 years. The style of Ju Jitsu I study (but have to drop because of a recurriing Ac joint injury) it takes minimum of 5 years to get 1st dan Black blet. my instructor has been studying for 10 years and is 2nd Dan.

I would say that an expert in MA of many styles would defeat a straight boxer in an out and out situation.

In my opion a lot of moves from traditional ju jitsu aren't too flash when it comes to street fights. I think you have to start improvising on what you learn. Otherwise you'll find yourself bashed in the face on the side of the road. For example, and I can only speak from the experience i have within my system, in the system i study at the beignning you are learning footwork and basic throws, locks etc. No striking is taught although they encourage strikes to the face etc when performing throws and locks to distract your opponent. My point is though that locks can be difficult to pull off on a non resisting opponent at times (theres a lock I cant do from yellow belt syllabus) and even harder on resisting. Throws are valuable in my opinion but are difficult to perform unless you are really really fast and really skilled.

Traditional stand up ju jitsu styles rely on leverage and balance which you get by being right next to someone (within say hugging distance. You can't throw someone from arms distance in general) and then performing a throw. If you can go toe to toe with someone whos done boxing for 6 months and not take a single hit while sparring then you should be fine on the street. But it's difficult enough to actually implement JJ without bein punched in the face while you are.

And Sun Fist. Don't worry if you haven't been in heaps of fights. It's fairly obvious since
a) you think you can defend yourself and that martial arts training should commence at the age of 3. I think its a matter of diminishing returns whne it comes to the earlier to start training the beter.
b) you think that the thousand techniques you've learnt these last 10 years will help you out if I slip your punch, counter with a light uppercut and then hook your exposed head (unless you kick me. But your only 13 so i woodnt be too worried)
c) and finally. Your 13 and think that you can defend yourself in fights. People dont go around picking fights because it looks like it will be a fair match up. They go around looking for people who are easy prey. I'd put you in the easy prey category.

Oh well best be going. Much work to be done!

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by chris davis 200

I honestly think that if we look at the current MA picture vs the current Boxing picture - the obvious choice is Boxing for the reasons stated by Tom yum.

But if we look at the 'real' Martial arts, with good lineage and look at their training methods it is a different story.

I would say that an expert in MA of many styles would defeat a straight boxer in an out and out situation.

Reason: more moves.

If a boxer had his arm broken in a fight he would have one weapon left, if he injured that wrist he would have none. Not a nice situation!

I spar regularly with a very good boxer, he always says its a sport. He recognises that it gives you a good punch, and VERY good fitness but it gives you little else. He now trains in tradtitional JuJutsu as well.

cheers
chris

If you compare the real traditionalists who have spent a lifetime perfecting their art, maybe 5-10% of total practicioners in that art with lineage to authentic systems, they would be able to defeat decent boxers.

For ex. Master He Il Cho (TKD) regularly breaks open heavy bags with his kicking power. Not only is he lightning fast, but is probably technically proficient enough to keep someone in his kicking range. Others can do the same in their respective arts - Bill Wallace, Gene Labell, Kenpo Master James Mitose, olympic wrestler Alexander Karelin etc.

However, a decent amateur boxer could probably best quite a few traditional martial artist even at 1-3rd dan BB levels.

Other attributes that boxers show include holding focus under contact (which takes time to learn), good reflexes and mobility which makes them frustrating to hit because they work the angles, set you up to be cut off, feint and keep themselves a moving target.

[Jero]

I think that comparing martial arts and boxing its caynd of stupid =) and also tryng to predict who is gona win in a fight its not an easy thing to do. I do agree tough that if a boxer and a MT meet in a ring chances are the guy that can kick has well has he can punch hes gona have a better outcome , but like i sayd before you never know . Maybe the boxer gets lucky early finds an opening and knocks the guy out or vice versa.
Lots of people have been sayng that boxing its good in street fights , i dont agree . I think its one the less effective disciplines to defend your self in a street challenge , the great ali him self once sayd most of the people i fought in the ring in a street fight they would of killed me. Boxing is a discipline like all MT and a sport of honour with rules that do not apply in the streets , so please to respect to the sport stop comparing shit (street fighting ) with gold (boxing).

[sun fist]

In fact I have considered that fact Thai Bri and I'm very fortunate that I haven't been in that situation and I respect you for fighting for your life but once again Thai Bri I'm just another person on this site just simply posting my opinions! Why must all of you people be so hostile towards my comments? Is it because my posts too detailed? Is it because I don't share the opinions of you boxers!? These are my opinions if you people disagree then don't be so hostile when you respond!

Gom, when did you come into this argument?What have I said that makes you think I can't defend mysel or haven't had my share of fights for my age? With all of the jerks in my school who think they are something special and constantly have to brag and show off, it's almost difficult to not hold a grudge against someone! And your right those techniques can put out anyone! I too stick to the basics when fighting or sparring but fall back on my other knowledge when my basics don't work! You guys take everything so literal on this site. I don't use every single technique I know in a fight I'm just saying that it's good to have abundant knowledge of many techniques keeps one from becoming too one dimensional! You boxers and kickboxers should know that better than anyone else! Oh yeah Gom, it makes me safe knowing that there are people like you who go around and look for easy prey such as children and teens! I respect the hell out of you! Just wait till someone like a cop gets hold of this site!

Cheers!

[chris davis 200]

Depends on what style you are studying and how fast their grading system is. Keep in mind that some systems take a long time to get a black belt. In some karate dojos (McDojos) you can get a black within 1 or 2 years. The style of Ju Jitsu I study (but have to drop because of a recurriing Ac joint injury) it takes minimum of 5 years to get 1st dan Black blet. my instructor has been studying for 10 years and is 2nd Dan.

agreed - similar situation in my TJJ school, but i was refering to more of the modern systems.

In my opion a lot of moves from traditional ju jitsu aren't too flash when it comes to street fights. I think you have to start improvising on what you learn....

In my experience i beleive that most of the techniques in traditional JJ are not designed as set defences for set attacks but are design to teach you a way of using principles.

For example once you know how the joints of the body work instinctivley, you are able to apply a locking technique to any joint on the body very very quickly. This principle from only one technique that you learn in class can be applied to any situation.

This is true of all the techniques in TJJ - if you can get to the principle of the technique then the attack coming at you is irrelevant.

so you will basically get a multitude of techniques from a single principle.


Anyway back to the thread -

However, a decent amateur boxer could probably best quite a few traditional martial artist even at 1-3rd dan BB levels.

I agree with you there - but it is such an unditermined thing that who knows!

cheers
chris

[BadgerFu57]

I don't think traditional arts are as much about fighting as they are about self-discovery and making you a better person overall.

Being a good fighter takes lots of conditioning, practice, and time. It takes a strict diet, lots of running, weight lifting, bag work, foot work, practice, etc. That might not be set in stone, but you get the point. Tito Ortiz doesn't go out and casually drink on friday nights. He spends a good part of his time working his arse off.

To the weekend warrior, that is less interested in being a world champion fighter and more interested in learning some self-defence skills, having fun, and gaining confidence, martial arts is a good way to go.

It depends on individuals.

Bruce Lee may be called the first "mixed martial artist" but most people group him in Kung Fu. He trained hard, consistently, and in a variety of styles. Judo, Kung-Fu, Western Boxing, Tae Kwon Do, and personally, I think he could beat a lot of boxers. His size was a disadvantage, but after few good kicks to the knees, he might equalize things.

[Gom]

I forgot to post this earlier Sun Fist but its a good thing if you don't wander around getting into fights. I'm not one to go around tryin to dish out bashes because frankly i don't like to think of myself as a violent natured person and I dont wander around gettin into fights. So u not havin heaps of experience at fighting is a good thing.

Oh yeah Gom, it makes me safe knowing that there are people like you who go around and look for easy prey such as children and teens! I respect the hell out of you! Just wait till someone like a cop gets hold of this site!

That's some clever shit you've got there. Keep it up. You'll have fight experience in no time. On another level tho i do crack up at stuff like that. If you learn to talk a bit faster then you won't need to use your fists all the time coz your mouth will get you outta trouble.

In my experience i beleive that most of the techniques in traditional JJ are not designed as set defences for set attacks but are design to teach you a way of using principles.

I'd agree. I tried to learn each part of each technique that i knew and then learn to be able to apply that from anything whether performing throws from punches or grabs etc. But the fact of the matter is I'm far too lazy Ahhh well. Shit happens.

[Thai Bri]

sun fist - have you heard the one about the fox and the cat? As they were chatting, the hunt approached, snarling dogs and all. The fox said "Actually I know about 50 ways I could escape from these. I could run to that stream, run up stream and then cross over, they will never find my scent. I could make my way through that hedge, they are to big to follow......" And he went on and on.

The cat ran up the tree and watched the dogs rip the fox to pieces. If you have too many options your mind freezes. Real fights are nothing like sparring sessions. Its like comparing swimming in a pool, with warm water and life guards...... to swimming in the storm in a freezing cold sea, miles from anywhere. You wouldn't be able to choose your stroke. You'd be too busy trying to keep your head above the water.

I know Chris agrees with you. But he puts all his faith into the "old masters", as though they were supermen with all the answers. He doesn't really suspect that the tales of old are full of exaggerations and lies. But we like him anyway!

Don't be the fox. And don't butterfly your way through the Atlantic, waiting for a rescue ship.

[sun fist]

You only freeze up if you think too much. But if it comes natural then you're in good hands.