My Take on Karate

[nolimitskarate]

some additional points (cont .....)

Originally posted by Thai Bri

- Ridiculous one and three step soarring, where the attacker has to attack in an exact and telegraphed way to allow the defence to work

Riduculous as it may seem, one and three step sparring can serve a purpose when applied correctly. You are correct in that the attacks are telegraphed and then the appropriate defense is applied. This teaches the student to recognize an attack and how to respond to different types of attacks with what is eventually an instinctive or reflexive response. It also builds eye hand coordination and helps to avoid the "deer in the headlight" response.

When we are training, we like to work through a number of one steps for a time (days, weeks?) to learn them - then we will build "street" scenarios and have several "attackers" milling around the students. When the attack comes they don't know who it will come from, who it will be against or what it will be. This forces them to react more realisticlly without being able to think through the defense ahead of time.

Originally posted by Thai Bri

- Sparing semi contact, like playing a game of "tag"

-

More applicable to competition or point sparring (my opinion) - howevor it is a good way to learn to understand timing and distance.

I prefer to use a more "realistic" approach to sparring. We aren't out there trying to break each others ribs or noses - but it's good to learn how much you can actually take if you ever do really need to defend yourself.

Originally posted by Thai Bri

- Binning the really nasty techniques, and leaving such things as "Revers Punch to body" instead of "Edge of Hand Blow to Wind Pipe.

I like to mix many different techniques into our training, drawn from many differnet styles. We teach ridge hands, gouges, knee strikes and breaks, etc.. as well as the traditional punches and kicks. We do not typically use reverse or corkscrew punches but straight on jabs and punces (as well as hooks, uppercuts or whatever else it takes.) - when it comes down to it, if you have to defend yourself in a dangerous situation - you do what you have to do and you can't be timid about it or you get hurt.


------------/ Respect

[ryanhall]

I'd like to point out for all those who need some extra clarification that I wasn't bashing karate. I wouldn't have liked it if my first Judo instructor threw me on my head every time I went to get a drink at the water fountain.

The guy you described seemed to get some kind of high out of hitting people when they weren't hitting back. This is what I took issue with. It's a lot tougher to play the tough guy when the other person is allowed to dish out some punishment of their own. I can knock out plenty of fighters better than myself if they stand there and allow me to hit them a couple times, but I wouldn't be so excited to step up and go all-out with them when they're trying to do the same thing to me. This is the point I was making.

As far as being able to take a hit goes, impact training definitely has its place. However, when doing it, you're not trying to hurt the other guy.

Also, I apologize if I misinterpreted your initial post.

[ryanhall]

More applicable to competition or point sparring (my opinion) - howevor it is a good way to learn to understand timing and distance

Absolutely incorrect. Point sparring will do nothing other than destroy your sense of distance and timing. When all you need to do to win is tap the other guy, you hang on the outside, jump in, tap from a distance further than that which would allow you to hit properly, and then jump back out.

If your goal is to hit quickly with a single shot with no power, then you are correct, point sparring will develop this. However, if you want to throw combinations with something behind them, then point sparring is extremely detrimental.

You want to see timing and distance, watch a boxing match. They tend to have very good understanding of where/when they can hurt the other guy and where/when they are in danger of being hit hard. Point fighters do not have this.

[ryanhall]

Wow, three posts in a row for me.

When we are training, we like to work through a number of one steps for a time (days, weeks?) to learn them - then we will build "street" scenarios and have several "attackers" milling around the students. When the attack comes they don't know who it will come from, who it will be against or what it will be. This forces them to react more realisticlly without being able to think through the defense ahead of time.

This is a prime example of inefficient training that is street-deficient if not street-useless. Memorizing 'defenses' to specific attacks is counterproductive and goes against everything that we know about how the human body reacts to stress in when threatened. In fact, attempting to memorize 'defenses' will cause the deer-in-the-headlights effect that you spoke of before.

It also builds eye hand coordination

So does playing baseball or table tennis. In fact, they build eye hand coordination much better.

This forces them to react more realisticlly without being able to think through the defense ahead of time.

But they are still in a class full of karate students who will likely attack them in a way that they have been trained to attack, not the way that a regular guy or a street punk would attack them. Also, I sincerely doubt that there is any sort of mental side incorporated into this drill, no verbal engagement, etc.

Riduculous as it may seem, one and three step sparring can serve a purpose when applied correctly

I'm having a rough time with this, my friend. Anything that is done by rote is absolutely useless as far as fighting is concernted (ring or otherwise). That's just the way it is. Why try to make old, useless drills functional when you can drop them and train with some aliveness?

[Szczepankiewicz]

done by rote

My esteemed collegue and fellow moderator sometimes forgets that not everyone is as educated as The Educator.

Rote - A memorizing process using routine or repetition, often without full attention or comprehension: learn by rote.


Also known as 'going through the motions'.


We don't do 1 or 3 step sparring. Why? I don't know the official answer but I can venture to guess that it is unrealistic training for the realm of self-defense.

We don't 'react' to 'canned' attacks. We play at various speed and power levels, but the more unpredictable the attack is the better in my, again, everlastingly humble opinion.

We always train at full contact. I don't think there is any other way to do it. No one has ever impressed me with their ability to 'fake' something. No matter how lightening fast it was.

Spanky

[Szczepankiewicz]

I'd like to point out for all those who need some extra clarification that I wasn't bashing karate.

Yes you did Brad, Yes you did. And Mr. Karate don't like to be bashed by anybody other than Mrs. Karate.

[kengar]

I don't know. How many posts do you see bashing Karate bewcause they never get hit?

Don't have enough time to count your posts! And Barbie split and took the Vet.

I don't believe beating or injuring students is logical and it shouldn't be done. But during training there are many times that being struck by an instructor is just part of the day. A past instructor of mine, while testing for his black belt, was kicked in the gut by his teacher while doing a kata. He had the breathe knocked out of him, dropped to his knee and regained his breathe. That is what the teacher was testing him on.

Would I do that to a student? Most likely not.
do I understand why it was done? Yes.

Ryan, I agree with you. If an instructor purposely hits you then they should never abject to being hit themslef. It would be counter productive, criminal, and insane to needlessly abuse students.

[ryanhall]

Spanky,
This is all I have to say:

The path of the Karate man is beset upon all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyrrany of evil internet posters. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of kata, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost traditionalists. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who would poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know that my name is the Lord, when I lay my dim mak upon you.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Wow, three posts in a row for me.


This is a prime example of inefficient training that is street-deficient if not street-useless. Memorizing 'defenses' to specific attacks is counterproductive and goes against everything that we know about how the human body reacts to stress in when threatened. In fact, attempting to memorize 'defenses' will cause the deer-in-the-headlights effect that you spoke of before.

There is a distinct differance between memorization and reflexive action. The goal is not to teach the mind to memorize a specific defense to a specific attack - it is to teach the body to reflexively respond when under attack. You are correct in that you need to know how the body reacts to stress when threatened - the body releases adrenaline which in turn impacts higher brain function (thought) - if you can control the fear and harness the stress through training your chances of responding in a dangerous situation sucesfully are much greater.

[Thai Bri]

nolimits- I don't want to sound patronising. I really don't. But I have been where you are now. I have swallowed and regurgitated all your arguments myself, and truly believed them. But I rejected tham when I looked outside of the dots and at other styles - like Thai Boxing, BJJ, Combatives and various Reality Based Systems.

Like Ryan says, you are learning how NOT to do things. Most Karate-Ka know this deep down. When there is trouble on the horizon they crap themselves (I know I did) as they knew their silly preparations had very little relevance to a real fight. But they#ve already invested so much time into the art by then that they cannot bring themselves to admit it.

Don't get the idea I've just watched a few classes and jumped to conclusions. I gave 5 hard years to Shukokai Karate. I gained 1st Kyu Brown Belt, and was ready to test for 1st Dan. But I didn't, as I didn't want to wear a black belt when I knew I couldn't live up to the "super fighter" image. I jacked it, and not because I couldn't keep up. Because it was too easy. OK, Shukokai gave me the ability to generate great impact in the Reverse Punch, the Front Kick, Side Kick and Roundhouse Kick. But only if the opponent stood still. It was one of the better styles. But a great many styles give Black Belts to people who haven't actually hit anythihg, ever.

You keep telling yourself that robotic Kata, three step sparring and walking up and down is effective training. But don't take up tennis. They'll lock you away if you're seen marching up and down a tennis court like a robot, without even having a raquet or a ball.

Please wake up. You have been sold lies. Deep down you know it. How could your training possibly compare to two guys padding up, getting into the ring and actually fighting? Or two guys wrestling, full contact. The UFCs only confirmed what many of us alread knew, yet still you refuse to learn the lessons. Look at the deadly Karate experts who got the shit ripped out of them, by that little guy who could grapple. Wake up, for your own sake. Or don't.

I am almost 40 years old (but I look older.....). At 20 I was supremely fit, strong, flexible and up for a fight. But I was only armed with Karate. I now know what my limitations where. I know, for a total fact, that the Thai Bri of today would defeat the Thai Bri of yesaterday without even breaking a sweat. And its because I not only train hard - I train effectively.

After seeing your posts, you don't. Not by a long way.

[nolimitskarate]

Now for the rest .......

Originally posted by ryanhall

So does playing baseball or table tennis. In fact, they build eye hand coordination much better.

True - but I don't teach baseball or tennis - I teach martial arts.

Originally posted by ryanhall

But they are still in a class full of karate students who will likely attack them in a way that they have been trained to attack, not the way that a regular guy or a street punk would attack them. Also, I sincerely doubt that there is any sort of mental side incorporated into this drill, no verbal engagement, etc.

Again, True - while we can not fully duplicate a true street situation, we can simulate the situation as closely as possible. And in fact, an attack can be simulated as well by a student or instructor - a looping punch is looping punch, a bear hug is a bear hug, a grab is a grab, etc..... and the instructors wear as much padding and body armor as possible so that the students can attack with as much force as necessary to practice the defense.

Originally posted by ryanhall

I'm having a rough time with this, my friend. Anything that is done by rote is absolutely useless as far as fighting is concernted (ring or otherwise). That's just the way it is. Why try to make old, useless drills functional when you can drop them and train with some aliveness?

Again, I must disagree - the human mind and body learns by repition. Football teams run the same drills over and over until they become second nature, baseball players practice the seam set of throws over and over, same with pole vaulters, weight lifters and yes boxers to - they practice there particular skills in a repitious manner that in the end builds them into the memory of the muscles and makes them reflexive.


-------------/ Respect

[Thai Bri]

"Again, I must disagree - the human mind and body learns by repition. Football teams run the same drills over and over until they become second nature, baseball players practice the seam set of throws over and over, same with pole vaulters, weight lifters and yes boxers to - they practice there particular skills in a repitious manner that in the end builds them into the memory of the muscles and makes them reflexive."

A sporting event, with agreed rules, a little bell to tell you that it has begun, a referee and a hot shower at the end has nothing to do with self protection.

You will not have warmed up. You will not know when the need is coming. It will swarm all over you, physically, mentally, emotionally and even spiritually before you can even look at your watch. And you will be as terrified as it is possible to be. All in the blink of an eye. All that, and more, will negate your little drills and specific reflexive responses.

ps - and at least the above mentioned sports practitioners will not be working out in thin air.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
nolimits- I don't want to sound patronising. I really don't. But I have been where you are now. I have swallowed and regurgitated all your arguments myself, and truly believed them. But I rejected tham when I looked outside of the dots and at other styles - like Thai Boxing, BJJ, Combatives and various Reality Based Systems.

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Don't worry about sounding patronizing - at the outset I said that I was simply trying to provide an opposing point of view. Understand that I don't limit myself or my students to Karate only - it is one training tool among many. We utilize Jiu-Jitsu when necessary - Judo when necessary - Aikido when necessary and any other style that may have something to offer. But I also don't discount the effectiveness of "traditional" training techniques when utilized properlly.
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Originally posted by Thai Bri

Like Ryan says, you are learning how NOT to do things. Most Karate-Ka know this deep down. When there is trouble on the horizon they crap themselves (I know I did) as they knew their silly preparations had very little relevance to a real fight. But they#ve already invested so much time into the art by then that they cannot bring themselves to admit it.

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Not sure what you mean by learning how NOT to do things - what I know is this - I will continue to explore various forms of martial arts - I don't hold one above the other - I believe they all have something to offer - and again you must understand the goal.

I am not out to prove myself in a real fight - If someone wants to prove there a better fighter than me we'll get in the ring and whoever walks out is the better fighter - yeah - No harm no foul.

If someone threatens me in the street, or in a bar, or anywhere else it is not a fight - it's a matter of him or me - possibly life or death - the circumstances and consequences are different - and so is the response.

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Originally posted by Thai Bri

Don't get the idea I've just watched a few classes and jumped to conclusions. I gave 5 hard years to Shukokai Karate. I gained 1st Kyu Brown Belt, and was ready to test for 1st Dan. But I didn't, as I didn't want to wear a black belt when I knew I couldn't live up to the "super fighter" image. I jacked it, and not because I couldn't keep up. Because it was too easy. OK, Shukokai gave me the ability to generate great impact in the Reverse Punch, the Front Kick, Side Kick and Roundhouse Kick. But only if the opponent stood still. It was one of the better styles. But a great many styles give Black Belts to people who haven't actually hit anythihg, ever.

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I have no doubt that you have done your time - and I agree that to many schools just give away there black belts. And I agree that if you can on hit a target that is standing still after five years of training that this is ineffective training - But you can't hold all training in that same class.

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Originally posted by Thai Bri

You keep telling yourself that robotic Kata, three step sparring and walking up and down is effective training. But don't take up tennis. They'll lock you away if you're seen marching up and down a tennis court like a robot, without even having a raquet or a ball.

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Back to the robot thing - a tennis player would not march up and down the court without there raquet or ball - but they do practice there techniques repitiously - back hand, serve, forehand, etc... - same -same (see not on repition in previous post).

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Originally posted by Thai Bri

Please wake up. You have been sold lies. Deep down you know it. How could your training possibly compare to two guys padding up, getting into the ring and actually fighting? Or two guys wrestling, full contact. The UFCs only confirmed what many of us alread knew, yet still you refuse to learn the lessons. Look at the deadly Karate experts who got the shit ripped out of them, by that little guy who could grapple. Wake up, for your own sake. Or don't.

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Ah yes, well awake, and no one has "sold" me anything - understand that I fully believe in padding up and going at it one on one (or 2-on-1 or more) - this is a great way to train. I also believe in incorporating grappling into our training. Ground fighting is not my preffered way of doing business - but I want to know how to do it if the need arises.

Again - I believe in incorporating multiple ways of training - previous posts were meant to point out what I believe are relevent aspects of thos particular methods.

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Originally posted by Thai Bri

I am almost 40 years old (but I look older.....). At 20 I was supremely fit, strong, flexible and up for a fight. But I was only armed with Karate. I now know what my limitations where. I know, for a total fact, that the Thai Bri of today would defeat the Thai Bri of yesaterday without even breaking a sweat. And its because I not only train hard - I train effectively.

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I am also almost 40 - look much younger. At 15 I was not extremely fit, nor did I have alot of confidence or self-esteem and I would back away from almost any conflict. Martial arts has given me much more that the ability to defend myself - it has given me confidence that has spilled over into almost all aspects of my life. I have tried and experianced many things that I would not otherwise have attemepted because of it.

Originally posted by Thai Bri

After seeing your posts, you don't. Not by a long way

All in the eye of the beholder .


-------------------/ Respect

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri

A sporting event, with agreed rules, a little bell to tell you that it has begun, a referee and a hot shower at the end has nothing to do with self protection.

You will not have warmed up. You will not know when the need is coming. It will swarm all over you, physically, mentally, emotionally and even spiritually before you can even look at your watch. And you will be as terrified as it is possible to be. All in the blink of an eye. All that, and more, will negate your little drills and specific reflexive responses.

ps - and at least the above mentioned sports practitioners will not be working out in thin air.

Agreed - it was used in an example to make a specific point - that we learn by repition.

Withoug being able to duplicate every conceivable situation that we might face we can not know how we will react at any given time. When the adrenaline kicks in and the mind ceases to function the body takes over. We will react in the way we have been trained. I agree that learning the techniques and "punching in the air" do not make you ready to defend yourself - but you must gather your tools before you begin your work. Once you have the tools in hand - then you can apply what you know - i.e. -
full contact sparring, grappling, etc...... - again, I was pointing out the use of those particular aspces as a training tool.

[Thai Bri]

I missed the bit where I, or anyone, said that it was bad to use repetition. We are commenting on the efficiency of what you are practicing, not how many times you practice it.

This confuses me - "I am not out to prove myself in a real fight - If someone wants to prove there a better fighter than me we'll get in the ring and whoever walks out is the better fighter - yeah - No harm no foul.

If someone threatens me in the street, or in a bar, or anywhere else it is not a fight - it's a matter of him or me - possibly life or death - the circumstances and consequences are different - and so is the response."



I'm not out to prove myself in a real fight either. But real fights don't happen in a ring. They ARE the ones in the street. Once again you're hiding behind issues that are not being questioned. Whop said you were out to prove yourself? Who said it was not right to do what is necessary to survive in a real fight?

Theres no point trying to prove, for example, that Kata/thin air punching/dojo marching etc. is effective, by making statements that have nothing to do with those things. Its like trying to prove the earth is flat by saying "You can get wet in the rain". Yes! You CAN get wet in the rain. But what does that have to do with the shape of the earth?

"But I also don't discount the effectiveness of "traditional" training techniques when utilized properlly."

There you go again. neither do I. But I AM saying that your are NOT utilising it properly.

You say you utilise Judo. Fine. Do you grapple with people, or do you grapple with thin air?


Come on. Wake up.