Sperry vs. Rickson in NTL!!!!!!!

[Mr. Miyagi]

Martial Artist, don't be such a Gracie ass licker. Think about the facts. Kerr may have only a few years of submission grappling experience. But he has a lifetime of wrestling experience and he has kicked some serious ass at Abu Dhabhi against guys that have a lifetime of submission grappling experience. I can say for sure that Kerr would never get taken down or swept by Rickson in a 100 years. You think that Kerr would fall for an eventual triangle, armbar, or kimura, from Rickson's guard? I don't think he would. Of course, Kerr could have another blood sugar crash...

[Bau13]

I wouldn't say Rickson has no chance of sweeping/submitting Kerr...If he really is as good as everyone says he is....

In my opinion Kerr's only advantage in this match is his strength...

[GROUND CONTROL]

Rickson easily swept and finished Mark Schultz when they trained together. Kerr's BJJ training is the only thing that will save him. In NTL it would only put off the inevitable, Kerr tapping. But under ADCC rules Kerr would get the take down and probably stall his way to victory.

[Mr. Miyagi]

You guys just don't get it, do you? This "NTL" won't benefit someone just because their last name is Gracie! Why does everyone assume that the Gracies' have more stamina than all the other accomplished athletes of the world? Rickson beat Mark Schultz when he knew NOTHING about sub grappling. He knows stuff now and he's bigger and stronger than Rickson. Kerr knows a lot also, and why does everyone assume that he will wear out before Rickson? And why does everyone assume that in a TL situation that Kerr would win by stalling?

[GROUND CONTROL]

Miyagi- Obviously you don't practice bjj or you would not ask this question. First Mark Kerr lacks the submission skills to tap any accomplished grappler. His knowledge of the art allows him to survive and avoid being caught in a time limit fight. Although he will someimes catch some lower level guys.

If you need proof look at the ADCC tapes from last year. He won 6 out of 8 matches by stalling. This is not slamming Kerr. He plays the rules to his advantage.

Kerr fought 2 talented grapplers in the ADCC 99kg and up division. He beat Rigan 2/ -1. He scored 2 points and Rigan got a disadvantage. In the finals he beat Ricco Rodriguez 8/ -1. Kerr was able to pass Ricco's guard several times but that was it. That was a 20 min match.

In the absolute Kerr wrestled Leo Veria(BJJ) who he outweighed by more than 60lbs. He did not score 1 point against him. He won 0/ -1, Veria was given a disadvantage and lost. Next he fought Mike Vanarsdale another wrestler. Despite outweighing Vanarsdale by 40 lbs he could not even score a takedown. He won 0-0 and was given a victory due to an advantage. Next he fought Ricardo Almeida who weighs 185. Ricardo caught Kerr with a flying arm lock. Kerr was able to gut out the pain and escape. He laso won that match by an advantage. Lastly he faced Sean Alvarez in the finals. He scored a takedown and stayed in Sean's guard to win 2-0 after 20 min. Do you see the pattern?

Kerr is a phenomonal athlete. He is a very tough guy. He is almost unbeatable in a point tournie with time limits. He plays the clock well and does what is necessary to win. But he has no ability to finish a grappler the caliber of Rickson. He could not finish any of the above opponents and 2 (Sean and Ricco)are brown belts. How exactly would Kerr win in a NTL match?

Our opinions on Rickson winning have nothing to do with stamina. Both guys are in great shape. Kerr is not a finisher. He can't finish the fight, so how can he win? Rickson always finishes his opponents. It is his area of expertise.

Sorry to run on so much but I wanted you to see my point. Each man has his own talents. Kerr is an elite wrestler, hence his ability to out point the competiton. Rickson is an elite finisher, hence his ability to finish his competition.

[Edited by GROUND CONTROL on 10-11-2000 at 05:03 PM]

[tuffguy]

Sperry-Rickson in sport JJ match: Sperry wins by advantage. With only 10mns Sperry can stall enough to get an advantage and get out of Dodge.
Sperry-Rickson in ADCC rules: Depending on the time limit, if it's only the 10mns then I give Sperry the edge by advantage. If it's a 20mn time limit like in the finals then I give it to Rickson by submission.
Sperry-Rickson NTL submission match w/ or without the gi: Rickosn by submission.
Sperry-Rickson in NHB: Rickosn by submission.
Rickosn-Kerr in ADCC rules: Again with a ten minute match Kerr wins by a takedown, 20mns could be interesting. I think Rickson could submit him, but it's no gaurante. I give Rickson the edge by submission.
Rickson-Kerr NTL submission: Rickson by submission.
Rickosn-Kerr NHB: This could be the greatest fight in history. Agian timelimits would be a factor. With 20mns I give the edge to Kerr, with his size and strength he could score enough to get a decision. In NTL Rickson.
For those who don't know a lot about Rickson: Rickson doesn't just win, he tapps everybody. Renzo has said that in all the times they have trained he has never even come close to a submission on Rickson, and Rickson tapps him out whenever he wants.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Ground Control, your arguments are fine, no need to make comments about me. I'm a recent blue in bjj. You say Rickson is a finisher and Kerr is a wrestler, who stalls in order to win grappling competitions. But you're selling Kerr very short in your arguments. You assume that Rickson can finish Kerr, when noone else has ever come close, noone can even hold the guy in their guard without getting passed. I don't feel biased about my art to the extent that I underestimate wrestlers.
Tuffguy, how long has it been since Sperry has tapped to anything? I do not know of him ever tapping in competition. And he has lost very few matches on points. Bustamante thinks Sperry could beat Rickson. Carlson said that Liborio could also beat Rickson. Wallid said that he could beat Rickson. Obviously not all of them could, people say things... But Kerr has never been in danger of tapping in any grappling competition so far, why wouldn't he be able to take the top and wear out Rickson and eventually get a keylock or arm triangle on him? Maybe Kerr is good at NTL and he doesn't finish his opponents because they are stalling. It's really hard to assess this situation and I'm sick of seeing people assume too many things in favor of the Gracies. Wrestlers so often get accused of "stalling" by bjj guys that are helplessly lying beneath them!
I'm happy to hear your arguments and discuss topics with you but please don't throw insults and suggest I know nothing of bjj.

[Edited by Mr. Miyagi on 10-11-2000 at 11:29 PM]

[Ronin]

Don't feel bad, Miyagi-san.

Compared to me, you ARE Rickson.

[duchman]

NO GRACIE WON THE RUSSIAN SAMBO CHAMPIONSHIP, HAWK!!

[GROUND CONTROL]

Miyagi again I will make these points to you. Kerr stays in everyones guard. When he wrestled Rigan, Veria, Almeida and Alvarez he didn't pass any of their guards. So that dispells your belief that no one can hold him in their guard. Watch the tapes. Kerr stays in their guards and never tries to pass. He rides out the time limit once he scores the takedown.

As for never being caught in a submission Kerr was almost submitted twice at Abu Dhabi by 185lb Almeida. Ricardo caught him in a flying armlock and was inches from locking it out completely. Kerr gutted it out and eventually escaped. He also almost caught Kerr in the gravata. Kerr once again is no slouch and escaped.

The main reason he never gets caught is because he never tries to pass. If he would try to pass his opponents would have a chance to attempt sweeps and submissions. Since you study bjj tell me how you would finish an opponent who is holding you down and not trying to pass? It is almost impossible. Let alone a guy with the size, strength, and ability of Kerr.

Again I am not slamming Kerr. He is using the rules to his advantage. But your claims of his bjj prowess and his ability to pass anyones guard are bogus. Check out the ADCC tapes for the last 2 years.

[Hawk]

Duchman,
The tournament I'm talking about was held in London. It was billed as the World Championship. Rigan Machado won it beating a very good Russian in the process. That is the information I received. Rigan is a first cousin of the Gracies' by marriage. Further, Roberto Traven and other GJJ/BJJ fighters have done very well in Russian NHB tournaments. Now, tell me a Russian Sambo fighter that has fought in any GJJ/BJJ tournament billed as a World Championship that has beat a Gracie or any other GJJ/BJJ Blackbelt. I have nothing against Sambo or Russians, however the bottom line is that GJJ/BJJ players
do better in Sambo tournaments then Sambo players do in GJJ/BJJ tournaments.
Hawk

[Mr. Miyagi]

I hear you Ground Control. I haven't seen this year's abu dhabhi, but I heard that Ricardo "almost" got Kerr twice, once by armbar and once by triangle. So, he "almost" got him twice, but he still lost. That is a testimony to Kerr's tremendous strength and athleticism. Because of Abu Dhabhi rules, Kerr would have to pass the guard at some point to win because if I'm not mistaken on their rules, there are no points for the first few minutes, right? Why is Kerr accused of stalling in someone's guard when a non-bjj-biased person could just as easily make a case that in fact, the bottom man is stalling.
I've rolled with a few purples before and I'm unable to "stall" in their guard on the occasions I'm lucky enough to take them down. Even if I don't pass they will sweep me. Submissions and sweeps are not at all limited to the moments when your opponent is passing your guard, although a lot of bjj guys like to say that when complaining about a wrestler who managed to stay on top of a bjj guy for a whole match. I just don't like to hear the NTL excuse that bjj guys have because they will probably tire out quicker than a world class wrestler that knows their game.
I respect your opinion but you might be thinking with your heart, not reasoning in an unbiased way.

[GROUND CONTROL]

Not really, I am speaking from experience. I was a wrestler before I got into BJJ. My main training partner is Sean Alvarez. Comparing yourself and a purple to Kerr and Ricardo is totally inaccurate. If you weigh 245 and the purple weighs 185 and he is able to sweep you at will you have a problem with your base. Also take off the gi and it is increasingly more difficult to move an opponent who is holding on.

I am a superheavy. Sean is a super heavy. If I want to stall in Sean's guard I can. Just secure your opponents hips, stay tight, and just move whenever he moves just maintaining position. This is what Kerr does.

Sean wrestled Kerr for 20 minutes. He told me for the first 10 minutes (no scoring)Kerr defended takedowns and stalled. After the 10 min mark he turned it up and scored the take down to get his 2 points. Then he stayed in Sean's guard and basically mirrored Sean's movements so that he could maintain position. Then Kerr's corner man (Ricco Rodriguez) yells to Kerr when there is one minute left. Once Kerr hears the time he explodes and tries furiously to pass for the last 60 seconds.

This is excellent strategical fighting. This is not superior technique. This is Kerr's pattern in most of his Abu Dhabi fights. The score with Leo Veria who is at least 60 lbs lighter was 0/ -1. Kerr scored 0 and won on an a disadvantage by Veria. I am not going to get into the details of Abu Dhabi rules but your assumption that Kerr has to pass the guard to win is absolutely wrong. In fact Kerr won several matches in Abu Dhabi without scoring a single point.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Thanks for your insights Ground Control. I wasn't totally aware of how things worked at AD. You've made a point about something I didn't know, but even you must have doubts about Rickson in a NTL against Kerr, which is where we started. You may believe that Rickson would prevail, but there is also quite a chance that he wouldn't.

[duchman]

Hawk,
First of all i agree whit your bottem line and i'm not trying to start a flame war whit you.

But the russian sambo championship has a higher level than the world championship's.
there is a saying in russia" first in the world seventh in russia.
And no gracie/bjj player won the russia championship.

And about nhb there are no pure stylist any more and if you want sambo vs bjj

Branco is a fighter who has BJJ black belt, while Kopylov is a sambo based fighter. Branco won the BJJ championship in the super-heavyweight class in 1997, 1998 and 1999, and he had fought a draw against Igor Vovchanchin once. So, many people speculated that Branco will win an easy victory...
At just the beginning of the match, Branco grappled with Kopylov's trunk. Kopylov hooked branco's left leg by his right leg. Just then Kopylov did a forward roll and caught Branco's leg and made him a knee-bar. Branco couldn't stand it and tapped out.