Krav Maga Groundfighting

[Szczepankiewicz]

Do you routinely slap ankle locks on would be thugs?

How about a nice triangle in the crowded bar?

If so, I gotta come to Austin and party with your crazy ass....

["Real"PDShaolin]

Sure you could slap an ankle lock on somone in a crowded bar. When he throws you on you floor or you guys slip and fall after gravity takes over you better know how to do SOMETHING down there. Maybe you would be better off going into the crane stance and yelling kiai?

Wait....let me guess........if you grapple someone in that DREADED arena "The Street" his friends will kick your face in while your locked up correct? Those same friends will buy you a beer and then let you fuk their girlfriends if you stand and STRIKE with their buddy huh?

[Aaron04]

Thanks for the responses guys.

GracieAustin, have you ever rolled with a KM guy? You might be right about finding a MT or BJJ school though. I currently train in both MT and BJJ with a JKD instructor. It's quite good, but there is a lot of stuff we do that I know I would never use in a real fight. I was kind of hoping that KM would have filtered all the non-essential stuff out. They claim to be "right to the point", I was just wondering if anybody knew for sure. Also, I was in the USMC as well, and I completly agree, the LINE training was horrible. I've heard that they have replaced it with MCMAP, the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. It even has a belt system, beginning with tan (the web belt?).


So, any more opinions on Krav Maga?

[Szczepankiewicz]

Hey PD, you said you wrote articles on Martial arts. Where might I find these articles? I gotta see if you write like you post.

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

I have beat on a couple different people that have trained in Krav Maga. I was not impressed with any of their stuff. They really don't have a ground game. They don't train with good technique. My little brother is the current Martial Arts Instructor for the Houston Marines Reserve Unit. He also trained the Marine BEFORE they went into Afgainistain with our techniques.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Do they include any standup grappling?

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

I couldn't tell because the people I rolled with got submitted every time under 30 seconds.

[Szczepankiewicz]

You're just too good for your own good Phil!

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

I just don't party any more and now train every day. I am nothing amazing, it's just the moves I have learned through training all the time. Relson it the man & holds us all to a very high standard. Besides 99% of the people that do Krav Maga have no other training & the stuff is made up hocus pocus crap.

[Groin Grab]

I'm with Gracieaustin from what I've seen KM is nothing more than bad boxing with some Aikido -- ish looking joint locks and stuff mixed into it I saw a few shin kicks, a rear choke standing and a thumb rake to the eyes. I think it would be a waste of you're time. It really is nothing more than a marketing scheme and a franchise martial art (McDojo as it is commonly called). A solid boxer with some street wise instincts would spank any of those guys standing up and when it comes to the ground like Gracieaustin was explaining they're completely helpless.

[MrPoopy]

not to throw off on JKD people, but there is a guy teaching JKD concepts or some kind of crap not far from my bjj school. The guy has trained some in bjj but he's still just a white belt. Maybe the guy knows some moves, but he's going to make far more mistakes teaching those moves to people than a real qualified instructor.

[Groin Grab]

I find that a lot. Basically what I think it is, is that usually when one guy is pretty good at one particular martial art and is qualified to teach it that, that makes him qualified to teach what ever he knows about any other martial art out there also especally the JKD guys. But I've seen karate guys and stuff also who really don't know squat about grappling teach some guard passing techniques in their karate classes that are just completely bogus. The funniest part about it is that the Karate guy was saying "yea not even the Brazilians know this technique." One time I had a guy who was a fourth degree black belt in Tang Soo Do show me how to catch a kick in the air and then go into a flying heel hook. It was just something he saw on a video tape or magazine some where but man it was like wreckless the way he taught it and I could tell he really had no clue as to how to secure a leg lock at all.

[Guest]

Let us not over rate the ground game. Sure, one on one with no weapons it is probably the best system to ENSURE you win.

Not one on one? Weapons involved? Or, worse still, BOTH outnumbered AND against weapons? Then the ground game is

U S E L E S S.

[Groin Grab]

Good point but don't over estimate any other style of fighting against against multipule attackers eithier becasue it's not going to be much better.

Back when I did karate I remeber my teacher telling me, "when you fight mulitpule opponets you have to line them up and then pick one guy and take him out." Of course this works for a little while when you are in a basketball gym and have all the space to run round in huge circles but even still as soon as you decided to engage with any one guy no matter how well you lined the other two up behind him all he ever had to do was get a hold of you and then the other two would jump on top and start simultaneously beating you.

It's just like in football one guy will wrap you up and then in a matter of seconds the entire team piles on you. The same thing happens with multipule attackers all the guy has to do is wrap you up or get you in one spot for too long and then every one will jump in. Watch any professional boxing match. What does a boxer do as soon as he starts getting nailed by his opponent? He goes to the clench. Watch it, every time a boxer is getting over whelmed with strikes he tries to make the clench. It's the same thing in a fight if you start pounding some guy be it a kick to the nuts or strike to the face I guareentee he's going to try and make a clench with you or charge straight forward with wild blows, and if he gets a hold of anything thats it, now it's just a matter of time before everyone else jumps in.

Ok weapons so now what are you going to do the guy pulls a knife on you? What are you going to do now? Pull out your own knife and have a duel? Or are you one of those guys that goes every where with a rig of about fifteen different knifes just in case something goes down. Now you can use half of them as projectials and the other half to finish him off even though he will probably pull the knife from less than a few feet away. Or wait you happen to have your Kali stick conceiled in you're pants leg and so you reach down and wip it out defanging the snake before any one gets the chance to cut you. Or luckly you just got that license to carry a concealed gun and you as soon as you see the knife you quick draw out your gun, snap off the safety and shoot the guy.

I personally perferr to use my lucky pair of numb-- chucks,and three sectional staff true they are both illegal in most states but thats ok my fifteen years of chucking won't let me down I'm so good I can deflect bullets.

[ryanhall]

What does a boxer do as soon as he starts getting nailed by his opponent? He goes to the clench. Watch it, every time a boxer is getting over whelmed with strikes he tries to make the clench. It's the same thing in a fight if you start pounding some guy be it a kick to the nuts or strike to the face I guareentee he's going to try and make a clench with you or charge straight forward with wild blows, and if he gets a hold of anything thats it, now it's just a matter of time before everyone else jumps in.

I think everyone is missing the point that Bri Thai made. The issue is not that "it is impossible for people to harm you whilst standing." That's moronic. The point is that you are more mobile and have more options when you are on your feet. Period. Secondly, the clinch is an excellent place to finish someone quickly. Headbutts, knees, elbows, eye rakes, neck cranks, etc. will disable with an opponent a lot more quickly than most punches. In all honesty, can you say that the ground is the range of choice for an out-of-the-ring encounter? If so, I can honestly say that I hope you never have to experience the real deal. In an ideal situation where it is truly one on one and mano a mano, the ground is a great place to be--especially against a larger opponent. Since Murphy's Law exists, however, the deck is the last place you want to be. And should you end up there, the goal should be to get up NOW, not go for a submission. Try training with some concealed weapons, and I think you'll understand what I'm getting at.

I know that some people will say "someone or someones can use a weapon in any range, blah, blah, blah." Well, they're speaking the truth. Still, the ground is the worst place to be outside of a controlled situation. You can't run, can't move easily if you have to, your reaction time is decreased due to proximity, and all of your energy is focused on one person. I'll use Gracie Austin as an example because I am pretty certain that he blows everybody else here away in terms of groundfighting skill. Even a very skilled grappler like Phil would want to avoid the ground if possible unless he was absolutely certain that he could control every aspect of the situation (read impossible outside of a predetermined environment with rules--a ring). I doubt if he'd disagree.

This may sound like I'm bashing grappling. I'm not. It's very important to know because of the likelihood of a fight going to the ground. It's also great for less than life threatening situations (i.e. dealing with an a pissed off brother in law). Just make sure that you understand its weaknesses.

Sorry about the long post guys. Thanks to everybody who took the time to read it. Hope I didn't step on too many toes.


Ryan