Wommem's Judo

[Szczepankiewicz]

Hey guys,

Lay of the Greenster here. He's only made one comment and this has been a pretty good thread. I don't want it to disintegrate as in days gone buy.

Kevin,

Where did you meet any 'progressive minded people' at the University. From my experience, academics regard you as 'progressive' and 'open minded' only if you think as they would have you think.

[Greenthink]

Yeah and stick with the same training methods from the 1880's also.
Forced bowing is for subservient types not for fighters. If you enjoy bending over in submission so much why call yourself a fighter?

One of the purposes of this thread is to show how women's judo has evolved from 1970 to the present. The same arguments that kept women from participating are being applied to the forced bowing issue. Tradition, respect etc. all the same B.S. Now womens judo is an Olympic event.
And some of the same people are still fighting for change ,to improve the sport. Forced bowing is a moot point, in its final death throes. Its a roadblock and a symptom of backwardness.Thats all

Look at all the women that compete/ participate,its a big plus unless you got something against women? ? You should be happy that you get to see something evolve, a little history maybe. I find it interesting .


With all the interest in Brazilian Jui-Jitsu, wrestling (college and W.W.F.type)
no-holds barred U.F.C.'s etc I think Judo is gettting ready to really take off.
We (U.S.) need a good showing at the Olympics and before that happens there needs some changes to take place. Open things up to more people - modernize! You know 21st century stuff.

[kengar]

The judo club rocks though. No politics. Just Judo

I don't have great knowledge of Judo, or I should say experience, but this is the attitude I've come across. The clubs that I have seen I've been impressed with the atmosphere.

[Szczepankiewicz]

The individual clubs rock. There is one leader and a bunch of followers.

Where the politics comes to play is in the organizational level. Just like in everything else.

[jubaji]

Yeah and stick with the same training methods from the 1880's also.
Forced bowing is for subservient types not for fighters. If you enjoy bending over in submission so much why call yourself a fighter?
The same arguments that kept women from participating are being applied to the forced bowing issue. Tradition, respect etc. all the same B.S. Forced bowing is a moot point, in its final death throes. Its a roadblock and a symptom of backwardness.Thats all there needs some changes to take place. Open things up to more people - modernize! You know 21st century stuff.

Aw, the medication is wearing off...

[kengar]

Open things up to more people - modernize! You know 21st century stuff.

As far as I know Judo is open to all people who wish to learn the art. If someone wishes to participate then they can, it they choose not too then they have a right to look else where. Its simple. Its called freedom to choose.

[gregimotis]

I was given the impression that the white stripe on a wommems belt was sort of a compliment. It was felt that wommems were more able to leave brute force behind and practice judo as a 'gentle art' and stuff...

And yes, before a get flamed, I agree it sounds like a pretty sideways 'compliment' to me too. Really though, what was the original reasoning?

[Greenthink]

As far as I know Judo is open to all people who wish to learn the art. If someone wishes to participate then they can, it they choose not too then they have a right to look else where. Its simple. Its called freedom to choose.

No they have closed contests. They (International Judo Federation) passed a rule that if someone refuses to bow the whole team is banned. I know you don't have to chose to participate but forced bowing does prohibit some people from learning judo. That was before the rule change making bowing to the mat voluntary.

In Minneapolis Minnesota they used to close the contests to John Holm's students because they would beat the crap out of everbody else.When he retired from the University of Minnesota and moved to Seattle, Washington the birthplace of american judo, his students took up the forced bowing crusade and the response was closed contests.So he sued and got judgements against some of the other clubs and held the judgements up so his students could participate.So there is kindof a understanding but it was only about bowing to the mat. The lawsuits have NEVER been about bowing to your opponent,which they all continue to do.

His personal opinion is that the forced bowing issue is overblown and it is very easy to get carried away talking about the issue. His website is;

judochampions.com


Back to womens judo a quote from Yvonne Morrow ,5th Dan, from 'American Judo' summer of 1988 issue;

'I was surprised to see that in England,the girls were wearing a white stripe in their belts. I asked what it was and (Palmer) told me it was a sign that women were not equal to men in judo- that the Japanese women wore one and the BJA (British Judo Association),of which he was chairmen had just passed a rule that all UK women should wear one.'
'Well I was working out more than most men. I had fought men who were a lot bigger and stronger then me. Why were they telling me that my level of skill could never equal a man's?'
'I told Palmer there and then that I was not going to wear a white stripe. He said , as a BJA member, he couldn't work out with me if he saw I didn't have one on.'
"Even though I never wore one, Palmer and I continued to train together, and he somehow never noticed that there was no yellow stripe in my heart either.'
' Then we heard that a 5th dan Japanese was coming to England for a year. Great, I was looking forward to that until I was told that it was in his contract that he would not train with women.'
So I waited my opportunity, and one Saturday at the Judokwai club my chance came. Watanabe was there .The dojo was partitioned- one side served as the mens dojo, one side as the womens. To think that they really expected me to stay in the womens dojo instead of working out with Watanabe! Like a shot I was in there in front of Watanabe, saying" Oh negae shimasu"- would you practice ,please? He never hesitated but said 'Hai", and off we went. Wow he was good and we had a good long randori. He then told me that he would practice with me anytime I wanted to. Aha ,I thought ,one small victory for womankind.'


The article goes on ' Later back in Sydney ( Australia) the trouble began.
There was a movement afoot to stop women from playing in contest. It suddenly became un-ladylike. I always thought that guts and determination were sexless. An Australian women was corresponding with a Japanese women, 5th dan, and began pushing for a white stripe in womens belts, no contest, trouser legs narrowed at the bottums, with the emphasis in training being Ju No Kata. Well, not for this girl it wasn't. I fought long and hard against it all but was eventually overwhelmed.'

In Japan I had not enjoyed the Kodokan. The women were unfriendly and did not like my solid black belt- I did not like the stripe in theirs.They did not want to do randori, but I did insist and found them technically skillful, but physically weak.'

'Judo competition for women started again( Australia) in 1976, and they do not wear white stripes any more there.Occasionally someone does, but during my time as national coach, I quickly stopped that. I did eventually meet Rusty Kanokogi, but It was whan we were both too old to fight much. I was happy to be the Australian National coach for the first womens World Judo Championships in 1980. It was a shame that it came too late for me- but I'd like to think that sometimes those women out there fighting spare a thought for those that came before.'

'We did alot of the spade work for women in Judo.Quite often, it was the determination,hardness, and tenacity of the women training at that time that convinced the men to push for change. Women have proved thenselves and they deserve a chance at the Olympics.Help them get there. Wev'e waited too long.' ( This was 1988, now its an Olympic event!)

[xero]

I think womens judo is great. It just gives me more people to toss. It is also fun to watch the womens world level compititions.

As far as bowing I think people completely missed the point of it. Those who are saying it is subserviant need to take a japanese culture and history class. Bowing isnt for fighters you say? The samurai bowed and if you think you are more of a fighter then them then you have some issues.

[Greenthink]

Are you a samurai??All the samurai are DEAD.Why would you want to stick your butt up in the air??That is as submissive as it gets.Look at the animal world,when something doesn't want to fight it does what?Sticks its butt up in the air.
How queer is that.

[jubaji]

How queer is that.

You would know.

[Greenthink]

How about in boxing, when someone gets stunned they are said to be on ''queer street".

[Greenthink]

Anyway the thread was about women that play judo.I heard that there are only 4,000 judo players in the whole country .Something is seriously wrong with american judo and its because the "Moonies" are in charge, the kata worshipping spiritualists.Trying to control everybody thru what else.... bowing. Most contests arn't even connected with the A.A.U.whose insurance plan covers everything but the $250.00 deductible.The others plan has a $2500.00 deductible.Now why not go with the .AA.U,of which Kano himself was a member?CONTROL

[jubaji]

Trying to control everybody thru what else.... bowing.

The one-trick pony rides again!

[xero]

Bowing is a sign of respect. Its used in everday life in Japan. Oh if you want to qoute animal behavior the exposing of the neck, rolling to the back, even the smile from primates is a sign of non hostility. The exposing of the hind quarters has many uses and it isnt really submissiveness.

I was not saying i was a samurai and yes with the fall of feudalism they are dead. I was showing a flaw in your reasoning with "bowing not for fighters." You completely fail in any understanding of Japanese culture though. Go read a book and learn something about it.