Which grappling art should I do?

[Junka]

Wasn't the original question something like 'which grappling art should I do?'

Anyway, like USArmyBJJ, I practice BJJ because I enjoy it, not because of the self defense aspects particularly.

I would advise the OP to do the grappling art you find you enjoy the most, as to build reflexes takes time and if you're not enjoying yourself you won't stick at it. Forget the politics and just train.

BTW I'm also a skeptic of RBSD. I don't care how many rubber knife wielding assailants you've fought; it's always the best swimmers who drown. Basically, most people will only ever have a fighting chance against one opponent, so multiple opponents would depend on just how lame those opponents are. Yes, people interested in self defense should develop good striking but I've yet to see anyone willing to enter even a friendly boxing match, where they're outnumbered 2-1. I have seen large aggressive doorman pull this off by scaring the crap out of the guys mates but, I doubt it would ever work for diminutive little me.

I'm not slagging off anyone's training and as long as you're enjoying it and being realistic then....peace.

[kingoftheforest]

Not exactly. My specific statement was that, "It is incumbent on those claiming that grappling is ineffective for fighting multiple opponents to prove that their particular tactics for fighting multiple opponents are necessarily better or even effective at all."

Then, I said, "I will willingly concede that grappling is ineffective for fighting multiple opponents. However, I would also argue that stand-up is ineffective for fighting multiple opponents." Note, that I didn't say that one was more effective or less effective than the other. I simply said they are both ineffective.

After that, I said, "Is there any evidence that TMA and/or RBSD fare any better?" So, my question was not for "stand up fighters," but specifically for TMA and RBSD people.

After dissecting the paragraph, I would think that it was clear that the argument was, "I don't think grappling or stand-up are effective for fighting multiple people. I concede that grappling is ineffective, but is there any proof that TMA and/or RSBD are any better?"

Keep looking at the term "grappling," because that becomes critical in understanding what comes next. (I feel like I'm teaching an LSAT class!)



I think that's a generally accurate assessment. Remember, my contention is that neither works.



The exact quote was, "I never said that I needed proof that you're better off on your feet than on the ground." The key words you should focus on were "on your feet" and "on the ground." I never said that I needed proof that you're better off on your feet than on the ground. What I said was, that there is no evidence that grappling is necessarily worse than striking.

Where you're confused is in assuming (like TTEscrima did) that "grappling" means, "going to the ground." It doesn't. In fact, please re-read the entirety of the first post and notice that I specifically said that having a "grappling" background might be better at avoiding ending up "on the ground." I say might, because I really don't know. It's all theoretical.

Hopefully, that clarifies it for you.

thank you. contrary to what the trolls on the forum may want to believe i just wanted to see how it was meant to be read. sometimes it's hard to get the "meaning" of what you are saying across.

I'm sorry if needing clarification offended someone and I'm sorry i was polite enough to ask what you meant and I'm sorry for explaining what I was reading as the to the meaning of what was typed.

Typed discussions are sometimes harder to understand because of lack of inflection in tone or emphasis on words.

When someone assumed what you were saying you got upset. seems asking for clarification and explaining the meaning that I interred from your words didn't elicit any better of a response from the sarcasm of your LSAT comment.

Your double speak seems to leave you nice little outs so I'll just assume next time to and save myself the trouble of being polite and asking.

As for your proof that stand up unarmed or otherwise works I'll refer you to WWI, WWI, Korea and Vietnam.

having had close relatives who saw combat in all these wars they never once told of a curriculum of ground fighting. Everyone of my relatives were taught stand up fighting and defense. Also a little research into the military programs and manuals for all these wars and the countries that fought in them on both sides show a curriculum of stand up fighting. if that's not proof enough for you that all the major militaries in the world up until the recent US military have used stand up including ancient militaries then I can see what kind of proof you want.

The Japanese used and taught stand up effectively so did the Chinese. OSS developed and used WWII combatives the Nazis' used stand up as well.

Silat Mubai which is the current US "enemies" fighting style is stand up. the American Indians used stand up. Civil War manuals show stand up fighting.

All of these wars and conflicts were fought at some point on open battle feilds against multiples sometimes one side or the other outnumbered. Stand up worked then. LEO's are taught stand up against multiples.

Until the MMA marketing got to the US military stand up was predominate. SF uses stand up also still currently.

So there's plenty of proof. Some people just don't want to see it.

[kingoftheforest]

Wasn't the original question something like 'which grappling art should I do?'

Anyway, like USArmyBJJ, I practice BJJ because I enjoy it, not because of the self defense aspects particularly.

Personally if you want to train BJJ because it's fun kudos to you. but if you post in the Urban Military combatives/Reality based Martial Arts then I'd assume you are asking for effectiveness not necessarily fun.


So if you aren't interested in SD this should go in the MMA forum.

[kingoftheforest]

Note, that I didn't say that one was more effective or less effective than the other. I simply said they are both ineffective.

If you are saying here that both are ineffective that what is an effective defense.

Armed means most likely you have a knife or gun.


So are you saying that if you were attacked by 5 people all at once you could shot or stab all 5 before being swarmed under. Mind you attackers don't scream there intentions then attack one at a time like on G.I. Joe.

they usually wait until they are as close as they can get before attacking. Also as has been pointed out multiple times on this forum, fine motor skills go out the window when the fights on.

So you will be able to aim shot or stab all 5 people after drawing your weapon in the 3 or so seconds you have to react?

If you feel neither unarmed stand up or grappling are effective what would you do if say you were exiting you car and rushed by 5 attackers? You can't run because you are cornered on all sides and the car is behind you.

or you can ignore this question like you ignore other parts of people's posts because it isn't convient to your case.

[kingoftheforest]

LOL! Someone's got a rubber knife stuck up their ass!

Well it can't be me cause you're so far up my ass there isn't even room for a fart.

[Junka]

Personally if you want to train BJJ because it's fun kudos to you. but if you post in the Urban Military combatives/Reality based Martial Arts then I'd assume you are asking for effectiveness not necessarily fun.
So if you aren't interested in SD this should go in the MMA forum.

Point taken.

I guess I was just responding to the thread topic. I do stand by what I advised the OP to do though. To put it into an RBSD context, then the grappling should be complimentary to the RBSD too, not a replacement.

Just so no-one misinterprets my previous post, I don't dislike RBSD, I even did Krav Maga and liked it. It's just that I found some of it seemed to suggest to the students that knife and gun defenses, or multiple opponent defenses could be more than a last minute, desperate solution to an impossible problem, to me they're simply not and, I work around armed thugs for a day job.

I also feel that to ignore grappling entirely is misguided. You could be taken to the ground or clinched due a number of factors beyond your control. Even if you only learn enough to disengage and stand up, it still requires practice with a non compliant opponent.

[TTEscrima]

Personally if you want to train BJJ because it's fun kudos to you. but if you post in the Urban Military combatives/Reality based Martial Arts then I'd assume you are asking for effectiveness not necessarily fun.


So if you aren't interested in SD this should go in the MMA forum.

Some people just can't stand it that other people practice something they don't and feel it's necessary to state that they prefer to play sports rather than train SD even if it means leaving the sports section to do so. Ever notice how little posting they do about their training in their own forums though? Makes you wonder if they have spent as much time worrying about their own training as they do telling everyone else what to do.

Hey I enjoy training, and women, getting drunk once on awhile, a good comedian and...hey I just realized, maybe they think Urban Combatives/R.B.S.D. is a dating service.

[USArmyBJJ]

When someone assumed what you were saying you got upset.

Actually, if you read back, you'll notice that I never got upset until TTEscrima said I was "stupid," because he was too ignorant to know the difference between "grappling" and ground-fighting.

seems asking for clarification and explaining the meaning that I interred from your words didn't elicit any better of a response from the sarcasm of your LSAT comment.

Sorry, but it felt like teaching an LSAT class (dissecting paragraphs to determine meaning).

Your double speak seems to leave you nice little outs so I'll just assume next time to and save myself the trouble of being polite and asking.

There was no double-speak involved. There was what I said, and what you misinterpreted. I don't need "outs" seeing as how I've said from the very beginning that I consider grappling to be ineffective for fighting multiple opponents. Don't blame me for your lack of understanding - others seemed to get it just fine.

As for your proof that stand up unarmed or otherwise works I'll refer you to WWI, WWI, Korea and Vietnam.

What works in military combat is not necessarily what will work for your average joe off the street. Perhaps you can explain why it does?

Silat Mubai which is the current US "enemies" fighting style is stand up. the American Indians used stand up. Civil War manuals show stand up fighting.

Ok.

All of these wars and conflicts were fought at some point on open battle feilds against multiples sometimes one side or the other outnumbered. Stand up worked then. LEO's are taught stand up against multiples.

Then it should be easy to provide verified proof of this, beyond your word. Keep in mind - I'm not looking for evidence of what someone is taught. I'm looking for verifiable (and falsifiable) evidence that what they are taught actually works. If it is so obvious, then it should be easy to find.

[USArmyBJJ]

If you are saying here that both are ineffective that what is an effective defense.

Running. Maybe carrying a weapon. I don't know.

So are you saying that if you were attacked by 5 people all at once you could shot or stab all 5 before being swarmed under. Mind you attackers don't scream there intentions then attack one at a time like on G.I. Joe.

I don't know. I imagine I'd have a better chance than if I was unarmed. If you don't think you could get out of this situation when you have a weapon, what on Earth makes you think that you could survive without a weapon??

Also as has been pointed out multiple times on this forum, fine motor skills go out the window when the fights on.

Agreed.

If you feel neither unarmed stand up or grappling are effective what would you do if say you were exiting you car and rushed by 5 attackers?

I would probably get my butt kicked is what I would do.

or you can ignore this question like you ignore other parts of people's posts because it isn't convient to your case.

What have I ignored that you feel needs to be addressed? I've treated you with respect. There seems to be a common set of feelings among the RBSD crowd on this site - paranoia, anger, and a sense of persecution. It's weird, but at least it makes the conversation more interesting.

[Junka]

If you are saying here that both are ineffective that what is an effective defense.........

So are you saying that if you were attacked by 5 people all at once you could shot or stab all 5 before being swarmed under.

If you're in that situation then sorry but you're finished. Realistically there's no training to handle that. More effective policing would be a better bet. Actually I have rarely seen people attack like that except during a riot in Douala once and when I was kicked unconscious once stupidly trying to stop my motorcycle being stolen by a gang of street punks.

having had close relatives who saw combat in all these wars they never once told of a curriculum of ground fighting.

I have friends in various military units and they pay little more than lip service to hand to hand fighting. They work differently and as teams with tactics based on weapons, their emphasis is different etc...

[USArmyBJJ]

Well it can't be me cause you're so far up my ass there isn't even room for a fart.

You might want to get that checked out. There's no WAY that's healthy!

[TTEscrima]

Just so no-one misinterprets my previous post, I don't dislike RBSD, I even did Krav Maga and liked it. It's just that I found some of it seemed to suggest to the students that knife and gun defenses, or multiple opponent defenses could be more than a last minute, desperate solution to an impossible problem, to me they're simply not and, I work around armed thugs for a day job.

I also feel that to ignore grappling entirely is misguided. You could be taken to the ground or clinched due a number of factors beyond your control. Even if you only learn enough to disengage and stand up, it still requires practice with a non compliant opponent.

Wow, another vote from the "I prefer bjj because..." crowd for might as well let the attacker have his way for you because self defense against an armed opponent is impossible.

Amazing that little old ladies have more confidence in their abilities than many of the MMA types who wander into this section and offer their wisdom.

I'm beginning to wonder if training in a sport that emphasizes this crap doesn't do more harm than good simply because it convinces them they're dead if they try to defend themselves. Good thing this little old lady wasn't pre-programmed by sport arts to believe she was gonna die if she faced a knife empty handed.

Five-foot female fitness fanatic pins knife-wielding attacker to a wall

By Jaya Narain

When she saw a knifeman repeatedly stab a man in the face and neck before leaving him for dead in the street, Georgina Harmer was appalled.

But without a thought for her own safety, the feisty 50-year-old gave chase and grabbed hold of the thug.

Then she got him in a headlock, pinned him against a wall and valiantly held on for 10 long minutes until police arrived and arrested him.

Yesterday she was praised for her bravery as knifeman Wesley Ogden, 28, was jailed for the horrific attack.

The incident happened last August when Miss Harmer, a customer service advisor for O2, was enjoying a night out with friends Alan Keown, 48, and his girlfriend Pamela Nabb, 40.

The group went outside The Clarence pub in Bury, Greater Manchester for a cigarette where they were confronted by Ogden who had been earlier thrown out of the pub causing trouble.

He made a sexual remark towards Miss Nabb, prompting a verbal dispute with her boyfriend that turned into a scuffle.

Ogden then produced a knife and started to repeatedly stab Mr Keown in the face and body in a frenzied assault.

As 6ft 2in Ogden ran off down the road, Miss Harmer - who is just 5ft 4in tall and weighs eight stone - gave chase and tackled him outside a bank before pinning him to the wall in a headlock.

CCTV pictures from cameras located at the HSBC bank dramatically capture the bravery of her citizen's arrest.

As she desperately clung on to Ogden, a doorman from a nearby pub came over and helped her restrain him until police arrived.

Last night she said: 'I think I was just running on adrenaline. It didn't take me long to catch him. I pinned him against the wall, put him in a headlock.

It's fair to say I applied pressure between his groin - that's the polite way of putting it - and restrained him and he was wincing in agony.

'He was denying that it was him that had done it, but I was saying "It's you". I struggled with him - but I wouldn't let go of him until I knew the police had him.'

Miss Harmer, a former pub landlady from Radcliffe, said: 'There wasn't a lot going through my mind really, I just didn't want him to get away - I wanted to go back and make sure Alan was alright. It was really serious, I think a few people thought it would be fatal - there was so much blood.

'I do keep myself fit, I run an under-18s rounders team and I go power walking twice a week. I used to weight-lifting a long time ago, but I'm too old for that now. I'm very active although I don't have a regime as such - but I think it did help.'

Mr Keown was rushed to hospital where he was treated for four serious wounds to his face and body, but his injuries were not life-threatening and he recovered.

Ogden of Oldham, was convicted of wounding with intent to cause grevious bodily harm and assault following a trial at Bolton Crown Court and was told he must serve at least three-and-a-half years behind bars.

Detective Inspector Sarah Jackson, of Bury CID, said: 'Ogden is an extremely violent and dangerous man who had the temerity to plead not guilty despite the numerous witnesses who saw this savage assault.

'He belongs behind bars and I am glad that is where he will now be spending his foreseeable future.

'While what the victim's friends did was undoubtedly risky, I would like to praise their bravery. In particular, the woman who put her own safety at risk and chased Ogden through the town centre, detaining a very strong and dangerous man, was incredibly courageous and her selfless actions have helped put a violent man behind bars.'

Miss Harmer, who says a policewoman friend once gave her a few self defence tips, said: 'I'm very pleased with the sentence - I hope this will be a deterrent to people carrying knives and give confidence to witness who have doubts about coming forward. They shouldn't be scared.

'If this guy wasn't taken off the streets he probably would have done it again and it could have been a murder.'

full article with more pics: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...cker-wall.html

[Junka]

Yeah, well there's probably not a complete story for a start. journalists need to sell papers. It could be that he was willing to stab another guy but not willing to react violently to an old lady he didn't have a problem with. In any event, I actually do like to see community action but would not ever promote going one on one with a armed aggressor
when he was already running away.

For your information I've stood between arguing parties who had reached the stage of holding their firearms (AK47's) more than once. I work in a variety of African crap holes and have seen my fair share. It's because I've actually been there that I'm a realist. No offense TTeskrima but have you ever been at gun or knife point?

[kingoftheforest]

Running. Maybe carrying a weapon. I don't know.



I don't know. I imagine I'd have a better chance than if I was unarmed. If you don't think you could get out of this situation when you have a weapon, what on Earth makes you think that you could survive without a weapon??



Agreed.




I would probably get my butt kicked is what I would do.



What have I ignored that you feel needs to be addressed? I've treated you with respect. There seems to be a common set of feelings among the RBSD crowd on this site - paranoia, anger, and a sense of persecution. It's weird, but at least it makes the conversation more interesting.

You don't know your right. And instead of adding as much to your tool box to make sure you know you would just assume that it's impossible.

And I love the RBSD cop out that everyone who practices it is paranoid. if I were as paranoid as you people seem to think all RBSD people are I'd never leave the house. Which means I'd be able to post as much as you non-RBSD people do.


And EVERY and I mean EVERY martial art teaches you unarmed combat BEFORE armed. because if you can't use the weapons nature gave you WTF makes you think you can use extra crap added to those.

obviously the first word in your posts shows how much you ignore what was said to you. I specifically said RUNNING there Forest Gump was not an option yet your first word is Running.

If you can't keep up with the conversation how can you eve pretend it is a debate.

[kingoftheforest]

You might want to get that checked out. There's no WAY that's healthy!

You might want to not stick your nose in things you have no clue about.