I ran, and I'm proud of it

[IPON]

Shouldn't somebody warn eXcessiveForce about this guy's choice of avatar?

I thinkl Ryan Hall has the same one also guess its a MOD thing....maybe they should battle on a PPV MMA event

[Szczepankiewicz]

It's all good, bonita.

[gregimotis]

QUOTE:
about six years ago my sister-in-law actually kneed me in the groin quite severely during an argument -- and she did it right in my own home no less! She kneed me because I dared to put my hands on her and she just assumed that I was about to hit her.

END QUOTE


Let me get this straight: You were having a heated argument with a woman, and she kneed you in the nuts because you 'dared put your hands on her'?

Dude, putting your hands on someone in the middle of an argument is a serious escalation; Maybe she shouldn't have kneed you in the pills, but YOU started the physical confrontation. Here's some advice: if you want to decrease the likelihood of getting kicked in the nuts, don't grab women who are angry/scared of you.

[osopardo]

It's all good, bonita.

ever since I posted that picture for c0bra you've had this mental image of me, haven't cha?

[mrniceguy148]

Hi Ipon,

We’re not as far apart as you seem to think we are. It’s more a matter of degree than substance. You’ve made some very thoughtful comments and I appreciate that.

You said:

Ok, we certainly do not have to agree but the point is neither one of
us knows what could have happened and that’s the point. But She had
more reason to suspect something bad especially if she was trying to avoid
the situation. Yes, she did have a back-up strategy RUN!! And I
definitely do not agree if SHE were beaten by 3 BOYS it would be her fault
because she was being harassed and violated. Yes encircling her and
her friend and then grabbing her wrist is more than enough reason to
assume you are in danger and need to do something to get out and she used
reasonable force for the situation. It is easy to sit back and speak
armchair MAs and SD but I am sorry there are too many realities that you
are not dealing with.

---It certainly is easy to sit back and play armchair MA and SD but that doesn’t change the fact that HKC was actually able to escape from a dangerous situation, regardless of how she accomplished it. Besides, she might learn something from this discussion. She obviously posted the story because she wanted some feedback on it, so that’s what we’re giving her -- plenty of feedback. There’s nothing wrong with playing armchair MA and SD as long as it’s done with good intentions. It’s all speculation anyway, so why not kick it around a bit? Personally, I’ve gotten most of my ideas on SD by just reading about it. Here’s hoping that I never have to supplement my SD education with some real world hand-on experience! LOL!!

Yes, HKC had plenty of reason to be concerned and she should have been ready to fight at any moment even before the guy grabbed her wrist. However, the way that I see it, if this were a one on one situation then it would have at least made more sense for her to try “stun and run” at the moment he grabbed her wrist. That’s because, against only one guy, she still would have had at least a decent chance of either fighting him off or outrunning him in the event that her first strike didn‘t work. However, I’d advise caution here also unless the size difference is negligible. Also, she never used a follow-up strike after her first kick. Another tactical error! If it were me I’d have kept swinging……………….

However, a three on two situation is a different matter. Realistically, if those guys were even half-way serious then they would have pounced all over those two girls the nanosecond that HKC showed the first sign of resistance. In this situation she could only take out one of the three attackers, and in doing so she’s also served notice to the two guys left standing that she’ll try to do the same to them if she gets the chance. Let me ask you! If you were a member of that gang and you were dead serious about carrying out this abduction/rape then what do you think that you’re reaction would be if you’d just seen HKC take out one of your friends? I don’t know about you, but if it were me I’d try to beat them both within an inch of their lives just to make sure that they didn‘t try it again; and why not? If I’d already committed myself to doing a kidnapping and rape crime then why not go the extra mile and add on “assault with intent to injure”? That’s why I say that if they couldn’t get away before the wrist grab then they should have played it cool for as long as possible and just put up with the wrist grab; put up with the sexual threats and put up with whatever else those guys heaped upon them -- that’s is, anything short of either trying to forcibly carry them to another location and/or physically beating them. In other words, at that point they should have been trying to postpone the fight and/or abduction as long as possible in order to give themselves more time to find out exactly how serious these guys were; or better yet -- to get away. However all that I’m doing is playing “what if” and ‘try this next time”, but ultimately justice was served after all is said and done.

Sure, a wrist grab, sexual intimidation, etc.,.. is a bad sign but it may have also been just a lot of hot air. However, you know you have a fight on your hands the moment someone tries to either hit you or grab you in a bear hug. In my opinion, that’s what these girls needed to see start to happen before starting a fight that they had very little chance of winning. Better to buy as much time as possible and maybe help arrives, maybe you get a chance to run for it, or maybe the guys just decide that it’s really not worth the risk and let them go. Again, like anything else in life, it usually pays to wait and play the percentages, and most of the time it pays to give people enough time to start thinking rationally, unless, of course, the person is just plain too drunk to reason with . In a three against two situation, and when you’re surrounded, it’s a bad idea to fight before the percentages say that it’s definitely time to fight? Why run the risk of taking a needless beating by fighting too soon? It’s a bad situation, but even at that stage I still think that it could been resolved without HKC needing to open a Pandora’s box by trying a groin kick. IMHO, of course………..

You said somewhere that men and women are different in how they’re effected by violence against themselves. Well they’re also different in the amount of punishment that they can absorb. For example, a punch in the stomach may or may not do much damage to another guy. However, the same punch delivered to a women could easily kill her, or else incapacitate her for quite a while. The thing is any guy knows how to do this. It’s just another reason why we want to be extra careful before telling women to just go out and mix it up with the guys.

Another thing: Why weren’t those girls screaming their lungs out as those guys were closing in on them? Why did they wait until they were running away? As far as her back-up strategy i.e.,. “RUN” is concerned it loses much of it’s effectiveness once the girls let the gang get close enough to do a wrist grab. From what I’ve read from HKC about this I just feel that she picked the worst possible time to take action because more bad then good was likely to come out of it. Let me correct myself here: If she had been beaten at the time it certainly wouldn’t have been her fault, but she may very well have helped bring it down upon herself.

You said:

I agree in the context that any one comforted or attacked by a gang can
be in trouble. But I am sorry it is different for women than men. The
reason for the attacks is typically different and the end result is
different. Men get raped by other men as well but that is certainly the
minority of cases. The point of my example of lockdown was for you to
understand how vulnerable and helpless a women would feel in that
situation. Getting you azz beat is one thing getting violated and beaten are
galaxies apart. The only way you or I could understand that is to put
yourself in a similar situation. (yes jail is obviously a different
circumstance but the example is what is important) and my forget jail 3
big guys in the village grab you and say “come on handsome lets have a
good time” they circle you and grab your wrist are you telling me that
you would wait to se what happens. If it escalates maybe you will react
but if they are just caressing you its OK??
What you are doing is victimizing the victim can you see that.

---I can see why you might think that I’m insensitive in this regard but I assure you that is definitely not the case. In fact my life was effected quite dramatically after a former girlfriend was raped. We started seeing each other near the end of our junior year in HS. I was crazy about her too! Then, over the summer she left for a few weeks to spend time with her cousins in Florida. Anyway, one evening they were at a park and she got separated from the group. Then a guy approached her and put a knife to her throat and then forced her to a secluded location in the park. There he raped her, but she wasn’t beaten as far as I know. She never resisted, because she was petrified, and rightly so!

Before she returned home she called me and broke off the relationship. No explanation, she just made it crystal clear that she didn’t want anything to do with me anymore. Naturally, I figured that it must have been something that I had done so I blamed myself, but neither her or her friends would talk to me about it. So several months passed and around New Years during senior year she finally calls me and explains the situation to me and asked me if we can start seeing each other again. Absolutely no sex though. We started going out and I could see right away that the rape had turned this bright bubbly girl into a manic depressive basket case. She’d jump or flinch every time I’d reach out to touch her and she was still having flashbacks and crying fits. To make matters worse, I was too immature at the time to really understand the situation so you can imagine how she felt whenever I said, “It’s over now. Try to forget about it.” As it turned out, almost six months after she was raped she still couldn’t feel safe around men. She obviously had a long way to go before she could date again so we had to brake up for good this time! It was a crying shame and I felt the loss well after my high school graduation! So that’s where I’m actually coming from as I make the comments that I make. It’s not that our concern or empathy, for women is any different. It’s all about safety, and nothing more!

Another story that I’d like to tell you about involves a guy who works for the same company as my wife, but in a different branch. He was coming out of a gay bar late one night. There was no one on the street as he was walking toward his car. So two guys grabbed him and forced him down an alley where they demanded his wallet. After he handed over his valuables the two guys then proceeded to beat the living shit out of him unmercifully. When the muggers were done they left him for dead and it wasn’t until the next morning when someone found him still lying there in a pool of blood. The guy spent over a month recovering in the hospital He had all of his front teeth knocked out and God only knows what other permanent injuries he may have to live with for the rest of his life.

Now I ask you? Which was worse, my girlfriend’s rape or the near death beating that the gay guy suffered? I’m not God so I’m not qualified to answer that question definitively. All that I can say is that we’re all equal under the law and we’re all God’s children ,so in my opinion both crimes are equally reprehensible!

Understand if I ever find myself in lockdown then I wouldn’t hesitate to throw a punch at the first sign of trouble simply because everybody in the big house is dangerous and so if someone there starts acting out then there’s a damn good chance that he plans to follow through on his threats. Also, in prison it pays to remind your fellow prisoners every once in a while that you’re still a “crazy” and a “tough guy”! Again, it’s all about playing the percentages; and those percentages change from place to place and from situation to situation. For example a women who’s living in an abusive violent marriage should fight back the second she sees her avenue of escape closing. Why? Because she’s seen the act before and she knows what’s coming and who it’s coming from. However, HKC didn’t have the luxury of knowing the people who were threatening her. That’s why I advised more caution once she found herself surrounded and outnumbered. However, one of the reasons why my opinion regarding preemptive strikes is what it is, is simply because I wouldn’t want to do something that might land me in lockdown also!

If I found myself being caressed by three guys, it would be far from okay, but I’d let it happen anyway if I thought that submission was the best way to save myself from being beaten or killed. Many female victims are forced to make the same choice and they often decide to cooperate because at the time rape seems like the lesser of two perceive evils.

You said:

You are missing my point I said nothing of how well the victim know the attacker. Please reread my comment. Regarding a fight, perhaps but I said rape and mugging in reference to the use of potentially or lethal force. If the fight is quickly stopped, there is not issue. With the example I gave before about the tree guys attacking, yes I would try to get away, but if that is not an option this will be the headlines in the NY daily News and NY1 “Police report 3 unidentified bodies found in the village last night. Police have asked local residents for information so far none has been provided……….on the sports report well it looks like the Knicks and the Giants both lost this weekend.”

----If the situation becomes that desperate then, yes I agree, you have to do whatever it takes to save your own life

[mrniceguy148]

Hi Greg,

You said,

I mean seriously 148, at what point do you think a woman should begin defending herself? Obviously not after she's been grabbed, so maybe after shes been clubbed and slung over his shoulder?

---You need to reread my posts in this thread and I think you‘ll see my reasoning -- although in all probability you still won‘t agree with me. LOL!!

I want to thank you for directing me to the Geoff Thompson web-site (http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/articles.htm). It looks like a good read and I’ll have to get back there to check it out in more detail. However, I pulled out a quote from one of the SD articles and it points to why I think that HKC fought too quickly”. Here it is:

“The inevitable consequences of toe-to-toe encounters are rarely favourable to either party so around-the-table negotiation should always be exhausted before sending in the troops.”

Personally, I don’t think HKC needed to fight at all; even after the wrist grab! It would have also helped if she started walking away faster and started screaming sooner.

You also said:

Let me get this straight: You were having a heated argument with a woman, and she kneed you in the nuts because you 'dared put your hands on her'?

Dude, putting your hands on someone in the middle of an argument is a serious escalation; Maybe she shouldn't have kneed you in the pills, but YOU started the physical confrontation. Here's some advice: if you want to decrease the likelihood of getting kicked in the nuts, don't grab women who are angry/scared of you.


----You’re absolutely right! If for no other reason than because enough people out there seem to share your opinion. When I mentioned this I never expected the response to be so critical! Live and learn!

[cakegirl]

Hi Mr Nice Guy,

I disagree with one of your assumptions in your post. You said:

In this situation she could only take out one of the three attackers, and in doing so she’s also served notice to the two guys left standing that she’ll try to do the same to them if she gets the chance. Let me ask you! If you were a member of that gang and you were dead serious about carrying out this abduction/rape then what do you think that you’re reaction would be if you’d just seen HKC take out one of your friends? I don’t know about you, but if it were me I’d try to beat them both within an inch of their lives just to make sure that they didn‘t try it again; and why not? If I’d already committed myself to doing a kidnapping and rape crime then why not go the extra mile and add on “assault with intent to injure”?

I'm imagining that I am a member of a gang of 3. We go out looking for a victim, and we choose our victim because of those 'percentages' you were talking about: likelihood she'll fight back, likelihood she'll cause a scene - if we can find a small-boned woman she probably won't fight back effectively, if we can find a overweight woman with bad posture, she probably has low self-esteem and she probably won't fight back, etc. None of this is set in stone, but it's those percentages.

Now my buddy goes up to our victim and wrist grabs her, and suddenly my buddy's on the floor holding his balls and groaning. Hell NO I would not be escalating the attack! I'd be getting the hell out of there a) before someone else notices something untoward is happening, b) before I get kicked in the balls too, and c) because raping her is not worth the trouble it's going to take to get her subdued.

Countless studies have been done on gang rapes, saying that women who fight back from the word go - before anyone's laid a hand on them, they are speaking up loudly and confidently - are the ones who get away. They are the ones who don't get taken to the second crime scene and raped or murdered. (And the women who don't fight back, who do end up getting raped, usually had a 'feeling' that something was not right before it happened, but didn't do anything to stop the escalation because either they had been conditioned not to believe in 'women's intuition', or because they were to embarrassed to make a scene.)

Cakegirl

[kengar]

Something to understand here as well is that a rape, assault and/or murder do not always start from the attacker jumping on you knowing that they are going to kill you. Many crimes not only have a physical escalation, but a phycological escalation as well. Three guys starting to surround a girl, one grabs her, in their minds this might be some 'adolescent' harassment but it can quickly turn more violent and into rape. This is a known escalation in crime. That is why it is so important to recognize warning signals and to protect your personal space.

This girl acted correctly.


Ken

[IPON]

As Always cake girl takes the cake

[Tom Yum]

Hi Mr Nice Guy,

Countless studies have been done on gang rapes, saying that women who fight back from the word go - before anyone's laid a hand on them, they are speaking up loudly and confidently - are the ones who get away. They are the ones who don't get taken to the second crime scene and raped or murdered. (And the women who don't fight back, who do end up getting raped, usually had a 'feeling' that something was not right before it happened, but didn't do anything to stop the escalation because either they had been conditioned not to believe in 'women's intuition', or because they were to embarrassed to make a scene.)

Cakegirl

The re-enactment from America's Most Wanted was an allmost worst case scenario. Stalker guy catches girl by suprise in the shower, he is successfull in subdoing her ;does not kill her before he rapes her because he is not into necrophelia and is a predatory type. Then tries to finish her off with brute strength as he chokes her. She seperates him with a kick to the gut which stuns him, pushes him down and runs outside while screaming loudly.

Even though she was unable to initially subdue him, she eventually did. Women need to know how to kick with their weight behind it, knee while standing up in a clinch and on the ground, elbow, headbut and bite.

Sounds funny, but I can't think of anyone on here who would invite any woman to but him in the nose or jawline with her weight behind it.

De-escalation is a usefull thing but guys aren't exactly in the debate-type mind set when they do things like this. They don't think "maybe she has a gun, maybe she doesn't....oh, I'll forget about it"

[mrniceguy148]

Hi cake girl,

You said:

Now my buddy goes up to our victim and wrist grabs her, and suddenly my buddy's on the floor holding his balls and groaning. Hell NO I would not be escalating the attack! I'd be getting the hell out of there a) before someone else notices something untoward is happening, b) before I get kicked in the balls too, and c) because raping her is not worth the trouble it's going to take to get her subdued.

---This is true! It’s happened this way before and it will certainly happen again, but now try this one on for size:

Let’s say that HKG misses with the groin kick and as a result the guy she tries to kick gets so mad that he knocks her down and then he kicks her in the face causing her a fatal brain hemorrhage (a realistic possibility since he was a foot taller than her). Now, here comes that teacher and the security guard just in time to find HKC near death and lying face down in the dirt. And then let’s say that it comes out in court that the other two guys weren’t really sold on the idea of hassling these girls to begin with but they went along anyway just to see what would happen and to keep an eye on their friend. In that case don’t you think that if HKC hadn’t tried to kick the guy then she might have actually survived the ordeal without having to fight? Don’t you think that HKC created a do or die situation that didn’t exist yet, and may never have occurred?

In all honesty, if my health, life or personal liberties are on the line then I’d hate to run the risk of throwing that all away over some threats and a wrist grab. The point is that at the time of the wrist grab HKC didn’t know what was going to happen so she should have broke out of the wrist grab and started screaming if she still couldn‘t run away. The last thing she should have been doing at that point was to escalate the situation further by trying to hurt one of them. We’re not playing video games here! This is for keeps and people can get needlessly and seriously hurt if they make impulsive choices.

Sometimes in these situations you lose no matter what you do so it’s probably safest not to jump into the fire before you absolutely have to.

I have a book here written in 1982 by Mary Conroy and Edward Rivito, two WSD experts. Here’s a quote from the book which just reaffirms the obvious:

“We have interviewed numerous assailants and posed this question, ‘What would you do if a women who you were attacking kicked you in the shins or stomped on your instep?’ Each concurred that he would knock her ‘blankety-blank’ head off and knock her to the floor.”

This is the mindset that a women should be prepared to deal with if she decides to fight. She can’t count on being able to scare off a whole gang by injuring just one of them.

You said:

Countless studies have been done on gang rapes, saying that women who fight back from the word go - before anyone's laid a hand on them, they are speaking up loudly and confidently - are the ones who get away. They are the ones who don't get taken to the second crime scene and raped or murdered. (And the women who don't fight back, who do end up getting raped, usually had a 'feeling' that something was not right before it happened, but didn't do anything to stop the escalation because either they had been conditioned not to believe in 'women's intuition', or because they were to embarrassed to make a scene.)

----When you read this stuff, keep in mind that you’re only getting one side of the story. Chances are the attacker will tell it to you differently, and remember -- winners tend to exaggerate! However, I agree that a women should NEVER let herself be taken to another location -- even if she gets her brains beat out trying to resist.

This, by the way, is where we separate the dabblers from the real hard-core psychopaths. Fortunately for us the dabblers are in the vast majority and they’ll often probe, push, test, needle and pressure a likely victim to see if she’ll go along with his demands quietly. If the coast is clear he advances and in the face of resistance he retreats. He definitely wants no part of an assertive women and he also values his freedom over his need for sexual violation and he also has a healthy fear of the law. Most women with half a brain can get rid of these creeps quite easily, and without resorting to violent escalation. In fact, these are the type of guys that HKC was dealing with. One loud scream and they’ll be off and running, so why risk getting into a fight because no matter how many people are around, and no matter how cowardly the guy may be, it still only takes a nanosecond for him to break her jaw if he thinks she’s challenging his machismo.

The psychopaths are a different matter though! Back in around 1980 we had this raving lunatic living in our neighborhood. His name was Richard Beigenwald (I actually met him several times), and he was a big-fat -ugly- S.O.B. He killed 23 college age women (mostly hitch hikers) before the cops finally caught up with him. He would pick-up these women, take them into the woods, rape them and then kill them with his bare hands. However, one women did manage to get away from him and she’s the one who reported him to the cops. So for the record, in this case the scoreboard reads:

Beigenwald -- 23
Women - - 1

So much for all of those quickie WSD courses that they’d taken in the girl scouts and on campus.

However, if you’re looking for a really down and dirty home-spun picture on how the overwhelming majority of women are actually fairing when they fight with men then just stop by at your local battered women’s shelter! The only women who are coming out unharmed in these DV situations are the one’s who are armed with either a knife or a rolling pin at the time they are attacked by a “lover”. Unanimously, DV survivor will tell you that leaving A.S.A.P., and peacefully, is by far the best way to go and that physically standing up to the guy just adds fuel to the fire. Why play those odds unless you absolutely have to?

I’m sorry, even though what HKC did seemed to work for her in that particular situation, I still cannot say that I approve of how she handled the situation. That’s because I’m a guy and I can understand how a crazy guy might think, and let me tell you -- some of those thoughts are pretty scary!

I realize that these are horrible situations for a women to find herself in, but I still can’t recommend that a women try to hit a person who’s bigger than her just because he threatens her or grabs her wrist. At that point she still has less risky options to consider that might even work better than resorting to violence! The important thing however is that she not let herself be hit and not let herself be taken to a secondary location. If and when either of those two things begin to happen then she has absolutely no choice but to fight as hard as she can. IMHO, of course…………

Mr. Niceguy

[kengar]

So much for all of those quickie WSD courses that they’d taken in the girl scouts and on campus.

Do we have to describe how stupid that comment is? Do you know all those women were in teh Girl Scouts and tooks some 'quickie SD class'? If that guy would have killed you could we say, "so much for all his kempo and kickboxing". The one who got away most likely fought back, mentally and physically. Not to say any of the others did not. Once you have had contact made you better unleash your inner beast.

So you're an expert on battered women and they are beaten because they tried to defend themselves? Are they not allow to do so and are you only allowed to defend yourself from an assault/rape/murder if you are concidered the winner?

[Tom Yum]

Mr. Nice guy, perception has a lot to do with this too. Another example you can probably find in BB mags archives is an article written by the former women's welterweight kickboxing champ Kathy Long.

A guy with road rage followed her along the highway until they got into the medium. The guy tried to grab her; she clinched and kneed and the guy was looking at the clouds. If someone larger and more threatening approaches a woman with an intent to make harmfull physical contact, I think she can legally use self-defense.

I agree with most of what you say. Verbal de-escalation goes along way, but intentions are intentions and once the verbal stuff doesn't work, you can either escape or unleash "a sea of fire".

[mrniceguy148]

Do we have to describe how stupid that comment is? Do you know all those women were in teh Girl Scouts and tooks some 'quickie SD class'? If that guy would have killed you could we say, "so much for all his kempo and kickboxing". The one who got away most likely fought back, mentally and physically. Not to say any of the others did not. Once you have had contact made you better unleash your inner beast.

So you're an expert on battered women and they are beaten because they tried to defend themselves? Are they not allow to do so and are you only allowed to defend yourself from an assault/rape/murder if you are concidered the winner?

Hi Kengar

About my comment concerning quickie WSD courses in the Girl Scouts and on campus:

I was only kidding bro! Of course those classes have helped millions of women and given them an awareness that wasn’t even being addressed by society in previous generations.

I’m looking for some common sense here and frankly, I haven’t seen very much of it in this thread! Has anyone here but me ever even skimmed through a book on WSD written for non-martial arts women (which, by the way, is the vast majority of women)?

The fact of the matter, and for damned good reason, the majority of these programs stress avoidance and de-escalation, and fighting only when all else absolutely fails! This touch-me-and-you-die mentality might be fine for a guy who’s big and powerful enough to deck a person with one punch. However, that type of cowboy mentality doesn’t fly with most women such as my wife, my two sisters and my mother. None of these women are either powerful enough or trained well enough to ever deck a guy with one punch, blow out his knee-cap or drop a guy with a kick in the balls. So due to the fact that their physical options are more limited, then so are their strategic options.

I’ll say it again if you missed it the first time! I’ve never implied that any women should not fight if a guy tries to hit her or carry her off to another location. But until she sees that starting to happens she should be concentrating on de-escalation and reestablishing her personal space in a physically non-violent manner; and there are many effective ways to do this that are less likely to provoke the guy into resorting to physical violence himself.

Also, I never said, as you suggest, that battered women get beaten because they tried to defend themselves. In fact, if violently attacked by a crazy boyfriend or husband, they should try to defend themselves. However, tragically when these women try to fight back it often results her further angering the guy and the result can be an even a worse beating than she would have gotten otherwise. I only used the battered women analogy to illustrate, in a down-to-earth way, the type of monster that she could be dealing with if she chooses to fight back. This is the most compelling reason that I can think of for a women to consider carefully before launching a preemptive attack, because once she does the guy’s probably going to want to hit her back! The fact of the matter is that if a women is ever going to be attacked then, statistically speaking, it will probably happen in the home! Sad but true!

Am I an expert on domestic violence? No.
Am I informed enough to give some factual information about it? Absolutely!

I don’t know about you, but if a person should ever threaten me to the point where I need to consider the possibility of having to defend myself then losing isn’t an option. Finishing sloppy second doesn’t get it done in a game where I may be putting my life, health or freedom on the line…………That where I’m coming from!

Mr. Niceguy

[mrniceguy148]

Mr. Nice guy, perception has a lot to do with this too. Another example you can probably find in BB mags archives is an article written by the former women's welterweight kickboxing champ Kathy Long.

A guy with road rage followed her along the highway until they got into the medium. The guy tried to grab her; she clinched and kneed and the guy was looking at the clouds. If someone larger and more threatening approaches a woman with an intent to make harmfull physical contact, I think she can legally use self-defense.

I agree with most of what you say. Verbal de-escalation goes along way, but intentions are intentions and once the verbal stuff doesn't work, you can either escape or unleash "a sea of fire".

Oh no! Not her again! Tom! This women is so full of shit that it’s coming out of her ears! She’ll say anything if she thinks that it’ll get her published! Here’s two more Kathy classics for your amusement:

One time K.L. claims she was teaching a karate or kickboxing class or whatever. At the end of class this big guy (a new student) walks into her office and starts ripping her and saying that he doesn’t like being trained by a female instructor. He get loud, he gets obnoxious, and then he finally pulls a samari sword down from the wall and charges her with it. So K.L. kicks the guy in the knee and he crashes to the floor in agony. Then a few minutes later the guy hobbles home. When he was finally able to return to class a few weeks later he was very respectful and sweet ad pie! Of course, no charges were ever filed……..hahahahahahaha………………!!!!!!!!

Another time K.L. claims she was practicing her kickboxing with some guys in the gym. When they were finished only her and this other big guy were still there. So he starts coming on to her. He gets a little fresh and maybe a little bit to friendly. Naturally K.L. tells the guy she’s not interested, but the guy keeps hitting on her anyway. Finally K.L. has seen enough so she grabs him by the balls and -squeeze, twist and pull. The guy screams in pain and then limps out of the gym clutching himself. Later that day she finds out that the guy is in the hospital undergoing an operation to have a testicle removed. Again, no charges were filed. Lucky girl! How does she get herself into these kinds of situations?!

The problem with taking some of these characters seriously is because they’re making up stories trying to sell themselves in order to make a living and/or the person has a rap sheet a mile long! The Guardian Angels were notorious for this kind of thing…..
Have you ever read some of June Castro’s misadventures?

Thanks for the partial support, at least, because I can use all that I can get right about now! LOL!!!!

Mr. Niceguy